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okay, we're gonna get started. Hi, everyone.

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yeah, yeah, we've got 3 presentations. Today, I'm really excited about these. there has been a slight change in the schedule. So The first 2 presentations will be as listed in the program.

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relationships without a future. And then friendship, marriage between non-heterosexuals. And then the third presentation will be about rethinking the role of gender care and work. So we've had a a slight change. But before we get to the presentations we have a quick announcement that Compton's going to make about a special issue, that we're

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guest editing okay? And on.

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So our special issue is with social sciences, and it will be open access. And it's about marriage equality around the world very broadly, very wide.

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we're interested in macro micro level. we're also it's also interdisciplinary. So if you're doing interdisciplinary work substantively, you know, marriage equality is a twenty-first century phenomenon, and it's taking place in a lot of places. And it's not taking place in a lot of places. And we really wanna be open to scholars who are doing research on that in that area in the in that.

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on, just specifically how marriage equality having that or not having it is affecting the world. we love the idea of a global perspective and having people having work from lots of different countries that maybe haven't been as privileged. I believe most of the literature on marriage equality has really come from a handful of countries.

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but we think it's just as important to study places that do not have access also. So basically very broad reaching and and wide ranging So if you think of something even in the little in that, in that area at all feel free to to contact us and let us know. The other big piece of information related to this is that if you contact us first, we would love to add your name to a list. So we're at the end of the process. If it's accepted, your publication fee would be waived.

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If you're on the panel, you're already on the list, we added, y'all But for those of you guys who are interested in doing the work or want to share the work Gail has given you guys the flyer, there's the little

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what's this thing called the thing for the phones for the menu, the menus at the Covid menus. That's what I call that

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So, anyway, you can get more information there, you can get our information. we really like the fact that it's going to be open access. And we really love that they were like we weren't willing to do it if they weren't going to wave the fee for that, if if you know y'all let us know. So Let us know about that. The other thing.

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But that was the third thing.

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Yeah. So basically, if you think you're even in that area, and you want to talk about it, we're here for it. We want to have a really awesome issue. So

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no.

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all right, cool, and you can ask us questions after at the end of the session, if you have questions or want to run something by us. Yeah, or after the conference. Okay, so we're just gonna go ahead and get started and we'll do the 3 presenters, the first 2 in person, and then the third person is on zoom, and then we'll have plenty of time for questions after. So we're going to start with our first.

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a presenter who is Suzanne Choi and presenting oops. I will

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get us

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okay.

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Great. So slides are up relationships without a future gay and lesbian intimacies in China. I'm excited to hear this. Okay.

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So good morning, everybody. I'm Suzanne Choi, a professor of sociology, and the Co- director of the agenda with the center at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. I thank you at the call our organizers for putting up putting this panel together

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and thank you for coming. So today's theme is about marriage equalities around the world. But I am going to broaden it a little bit. I'm going to talk about intimacy. the term intimacy can be quite confusing. he in this paper I'm focusing on relationships that characterize by romantic love, sexual activity and other passionate interactions, and with the chiefly concerned the subjective quality of close connections. So, although it overlaps with a casual sexual encounters.

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they are also conceptually distinctive. But even this umbrella concept or intimacy indeed, Includes many different forms of relationships. for example, Courtship and cohabitation and marriage, which is more the most institutionalized. And because of the theme I'm going to. also time concerned. I'm going to focus on the most institutionalized for marriage.

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Okay, so I think there's a global debate about same-sex marriage. And this debate, and has its opponents and proponents. The proponents of same sex. Marriage argues that same sex. Marriage is a citizens, rights, and a matter of justice, and indeed, in daily life, in a same-sex, marriage or marriage is in the chief mechanisms for citizens to access. Benefits and rights are given by the State.

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and but the opponents of same-sex marriage argues that Many of these opponents, their career theorists. They argue that same-sex marriage is in the assimilation. To and normalizing heteronormativity. And also they worry that same-sex marriage will create hierarchies within the Lgbtq population

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and with disadvantage and marginalized those who will not get married. They also worried that same-sex marriage will privatize curious sex and demobilize career activism.

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there's a lot of debates on this, especially our American sociologist, Mary Brinstein and Monica Boyd. So I'm not going to enter this debate today just to give you a background. But I would argue that this debate about whether to have marriage and same-sex marriage or not is a debate that's the most relevance for democracies, because now those are the countries that have granted LGBT people

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the rise to same-sex marriage. But at the moment only for 34 countries are giving this rights to same-sex marriages.

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I to LGBT people. But how about LGBT people living in countries without this same sex marriage rights? What happens to their marriage practices. And this is the focus of my presentation today.

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indeed, I'm focusing on China, but I think my findings will be but also relevant, for you know other countries when same-sex the option for same-sex marriage is not available for the LGBT people.

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So in China we can observe a wide spectrum of marriage or intimate practices. LGBT people. They can stay single. even though they can, for example, have a cohabitating a same-sex relationship or non cohabitating same-sex relationship, or many of them enter heterosexual marriage. this is only China, and also in India or the Middle East.

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and then in China, in the last 10 decades. There is also quite innovative practice. The gay and lesbians. They will arrange so-called contract marriage or nominal marriage to give the impression of a heterosexual marriage, and this is primarily to satisfy their parents.

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You know I want, and also to crave, you know, a space for them to, you know, pursue their intimate In life. but then they are also, you know, those who are better off financially, they will register their same-sex marriage overseas. And really interesting is that many LGBT people are also combining these different forms of intimacy and marriage practices.

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And so my question is, how do we explain these variations in marriage practices among the LGBT population. When same-sex marriage option is not available in their own country.

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there are 3 hypotheses, the first one, and as also most dominant ones, is that you know, these variations can be explained by political exclusion and legal barriers. And of course this is really important, for example in China, because the rise of same to same-sex marriage is not ever a level, and also a same-sex couples. They have no rise to parenthood.

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because a system with productive technology and adoption rights are only limited to American people. So then, these steers in our LGBT couples who want to have marriage or more, are institutionalized relationships to register their marriages overseas.

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But then I would argue that this thesis of political exclusion and legal barriers can not explain the variations, because, for example, for China, for so many, China's, all the LGBT Chinese face the same political exclusion and legal barriers. And yet we observe such a huge variations in marriage and intimate practices.

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The second thesis is about cultural and social reasons, and I think this thesis is best to explain, for example, the rise of so-called contract on nominal marriages because of the cultural centrality of marriage, and also the continual significance of family, and also the ability of parents to assert inference on their adult children

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and marriage decisions. So then, you, you know you, you have this, as you know, gay and Lesbians in China, and are trying to arrange in a marriage with each other. But these are indeed, you know, marriage in name without any substance, because they are just to satisfy their parents in a wish that they have a heterosexual look like heterosexual marriage.

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But I would argue that even this social and cultural reasons cannot explain the huge variations in and our marriage practices among the LGBT people in China or in countries in with similar contexts.

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because in as my data will illustrate. Even if LGBT people they want to arrange for nominal or so-called contract marriage. Many of them, you know, they don't have the resources to do so. So this come to my and our thesis and focus on today's paper. I'm going to look at how structural class inequalities in a steel LGBT people into different forms of marriage practices, and you know how this shapes their in our practices, or, you know, into my life.

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Okay? So before I present my research, I think you know, is because of my fields. I is post-socialist China. So I want to give you some context about the country.

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so since China's economic reform in the 1970 S. You have, we have winners, you know, the increase of commodified spaces for LGBT people to pursue and express their sexuality. So, for example, in metropolitan lies Shanghai Beijing, Sichuan, or Guanto. They had lots of gay and Lesbian and more. more gaze! Like bars, but they're also less. Be embarrassed. Okay?

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And also even in small cities. Now you can also have some, you know. bars they, you know they are not explicitly, and for LGBT, but they are indeed! you know, queer spaces, and but these are commodified spaces, of course. Then there's also a lot of dating apps, you know, for LGBT population in China.

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So, on the one hand, you have this in Greek commodified spaces. On the other hand, this day also at some point, have lessons. You know. It's repression against LGBT people, for example, homosexuality was decriminalized in 1997, and homosexuality was also removed from the list of mental health units in 2,001 in China. But I would argue that you know the situation is not a, you know, a smooth-wide or linear development

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in 2,000, and since 2,012 the Chinese day also has intensified its repression against LGBT. Ngos. Many LGBT. Ngos were forced to shut down the photo that you saw about the Rainbow. It was the photo that I took in 2,008 when I was in participating in the Shanghai pride.

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The Shanghai probably was, and are, the largest annual events for LGBT people in China starting in 2,009, but it was forced to end in 2,020. So But then they also tightening or State control of Lgbtq. Contents in the sidebar space

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mit Ctl. And and the Universities used to be, you know, a very much more liberal spaces for LGBT people to express and advocate for LGBT rights. But recently, you know, there's also a crackdown on, you know, as LGBT activities within universities. So you have seen, you know, this tightening of State control? 2.

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 of course, as I say, there's also continuous day denial of same-sex marriage rights and LGBT people's rights to parenthood. But then also the continuation of social stematization and discrimination against LGBT people. China has no legislation barring discrimination based on sexual orientation

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and also schematization and discrimination is also very rampant. For example, only less than half of my LGBT people have come out out to their parents.

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there's also a lot of family pressure to get married. especially for their younger generation. A lot of them are the single child, and the only hope of their family, and the parents invested heavily in this children, so in the expectation that they also meet their you know. Obligations to enter heterosexual marriage, and also continue the family line.

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But then I think one thing is another thing which is really interesting, which I think has. you know we see much less attention is about how the growing class inequalities in China also have affected the lives of LGBT people in China

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China's Ginny, coefficient and indicates of income inequalities was estimated at 0 point 2 8 in 1,981. This is shortly after the economic reform, but the increased to 0 point 4 9 in 2,007, and has remained at this level at 2021.

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The main drivers of growing income inequalities include inequal inequalities in access to higher education and rural urban disparities. And this inequalities, as I will argue in this paper, they have important implications of you know whether the sexual citizenship of Chinese sexual minorities may be achieved in a neoliberal era.

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Now, my research is funded by the Hong Kong Research Grounds council, and then I use Mainly 3 methods I have. life focused live interviews with a questionnaire survey, and also I conduct an anographic field work with my research assistance. Some of them are here, and they'll go off a few in Shanghai and Beijing in 2,017 and 2,018.

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I think I we were very lucky, because after this field there was a Covid, and also because of tightening of the political situation in China, it's really difficult to conduct fuel in China now. So I I feel, you know, a strong obligation to really finish a book based on this data.

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And so I think I don't have time to go to. You know the detail of the the demographic provides of my responders. I would just say that, you know, there's a very diverse profile. including different age, co-hosts, and different educational life, a different partnership status, and also different, come out status

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and also different associate demographic. Profiles, for example, there, as 77 of them have hooked in tier one cities, 60 of them have fucal in tier 2 to 5 cities and Chanti have war. Hooco and 4 have citizenships in, you know. So countries like Canada or the Us.

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Okay, their relationship status. This is really diverse, and this is what I want to talk little bit more 84 of my respondents is single but 37. They are in cohabitating same-sex relationship and 29 in non cohabitating same-sex relationship. And I have registered their marriage overseas and to a combining so-called contract marriage or nominal marriage with same sex cohabitating relationship.

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One was combining a nominal marriage with same-sex marriage, and then one ended the heterosexual marriage. And then, at the time of interview it was in a cohabitating same-sex relationship, and one at a time or interview was in a heterosexual marriage, and one was in a heterosexual relationship.

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And so not only in the practices of marriage and intimacies are so diverse, the attitudes are equally diverse. So with respect to contra and nominal marriages, 15 respondents explicitly say that they rejected this practice because for them it was a lie.

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it was! It was lied to their parents and And so they they thought that it was. You know they rejected it but 6 respondents, in our hope that they, if they have the resources, they want to have a same. Arrange in a a nominal marriage or contract marriage, and 14 of them, at a time of interview, were actively looking for a nominal marriage. Partners

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had toosexual marriage with respect to heterosexual marriage. 10 of my respondents that have their same-sex relationships, and because their same-sex partner enter heterosexual marriages.

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and about aspirations to same-sex marriage among those who have panel. This is equally diverse as well. 6 of them reject the same-sex marriage, and you know, taking the Korea theories and not stand, but the majority. They still aspire to same-sex marriage, but their aspiration is also conditional, conditional on whether they have found somebody a suitable partner, or they have the resources.

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and you know, resources and economic stability feature very centrally in their narrative, and which is related to their aspiration and practices of same-sex marriage

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about parent. What? This is also very interesting. 17 of them rejected parenthood, but then also their considerable number of them. They aspire to parenthood, and often for them. parenthood and same-sex marriage is related because they still see marriage is a gateway to parent with.

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Okay? So I think I will have a 3 stories to share, and then you can see in how you know the in the structural class inequalities have steered in my respondents into, you know, different marriage practices. The first story is 10. He is a 42 year old, gay man

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10. I was born in the village in Northern China to a working class family, and then, after he finished high school, he 5 min. Okay. After he finished high school he joined the army, and after he left the army at the time, he already knew that he, like man, but he still enter heterosexual marriage, and with his wife, he! They have a daughter. But in the 2 thousands, when the Internet became widely accessible, 10 started to visit, you know

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this. gay Discussion forums, and then he confirmed his identity, and then he tried to create conflicts with his wife, hoping that she would accept his proposal for a divorce. But his own parents and his wife as parents they try every efforts to mediate.

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so his efforts to divorce the first time in a fail. So in 2,004, and in 5 he left his village to go to Shanghai for work, and in Shanghai he met his same sex partners. So at a time of interview. They were already together for 10 years, so in 2,006 he returned to his hometown and came out to his wife, and to his extended family, and then, in a proposed a divorce, he seced this time after he decided, agreed to give up all his properties and the custody to his wife.

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But then his relationship with his same-sex panel was not smooth.

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because between 2,008 and 2,010, he same sex panel left him. because his same sex pound that was the only child, and also was under intense pressure from his parents to get married so, and he wanted to have children as well, and he didn't have the money for surrogacy. So he left 10, and then to try to enter heterosexual relationship with a woman, you know, thinking that he will either in the meantime maintain the

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a relationship with 10, or he will have a child with a woman, and then divorced the woman and came back to 10. Can we reject this agreement at this proposal? But then That that same-sex partner later couldn't have a physical contact with the the, the dating partner. So end the relationship and then continue with the relationship with 10.

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So this is the first story, the second story. I'm sorry.

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The second story is Lynn Lynn is a 37 year old. Lesbian. by all means Lynn could be regarded as middle class. She has a university degree. I have a who called in Beijing work in a State publishing firm, and then is living with his same sex partner in a flats that his parents bought. But Lynn's relationship with 2 women also is, you know, mediated by class resources.

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Lynn met his first panel at the University, and they were together for 7 years. But at the end of the 7 years his panel decided to leave her to enter heterosexual marriage with a rich divorce man because she was under pressure from her own parents, and she also wanted to have children. Also she was thinking about her future financial and Osteopathy and protection.

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So Lin was deeply hurt, but in 2,014 she met her second same-sex partner. They were together for 4 years, and you know at the time of the interview, and they both have came out to their parents. They were committed to their relationship.

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But then, at the time we interviewed. They also faced a lot of conflicts, daily conflicts, because his partner wanted to have a marriage overseas, wanted to have Ivf overseas, so they can have a child and also wanted to a wedding. But all this require a lot of financial resources that lean A, you know, appointment at the State Enterprise could not afford. So Lynn's partner was, you know, pressurizing lean

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to give up his job at the State publishing firm to get a job in the private sector. So have a higher income. But lyn value the stability.

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You know her state enterprise job will for her. And so okay, 2 min. So I think the last story is, Daniel Daniel is A. 41 E. O. gay man with a Ph. D. Degree and citizenship in the Us. He was indeed born in a a town in a small city in Eastern China, but he migrated to the Us. And then he met his Chinese same sex panel in the Us. But because 10. Daniel. Sorry

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I'm so confused. Daniel. Daniel is a single child, so, in order to, you know, meet his parents, pressure for him, and to have a heterosexual marriage. When he was in the Us. He arranged a same-sex marriage with a Lesbian so at the time, but also he register same-sex marriage with his partner in 2,016. So at the time of interview, he was, you know, navigating a contract marriage

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and the same-sex marriage, and also his same-sex marriage partner, have a baby, but not with his sperm with donated sperm. And but then he had to play the role of the father of this, you know, nominal marriage partner. But at the time of interview he was also trying to have his own children through surrogacy.

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and he hope that after he has his own children he could finally come out to his parents. So I think what this says stories illustrate is that, indeed a structural class. Inequalities have really important implications for how same-sex LGBT people can realize they are in a non-normative sexuality. But in, I think, in the research of sexuality. There's enough not sufficient attention to this, because I think

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And there's, you know, some people believe that. You know we are now in a gay LGBT intimacy, has entered so-called classroom or post-class stage.

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and also for scholars of individualization like Anthony Giddens. They believe you know there's a you know in lay more d, let's say, individuals have a lot of, you know, capacity to we fashion or self-essions. They are an intimacy. But so what I want to do in my presentation, and my book is to bring class back in. There's a lot a group of scholars in the British Sociology step in doing this.

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but I will argue that. you know. the same allow we search, you know, in for example, outside of the Uk is is still very much lacking. And indeed, I I've been publishing A on this theme, and I'll try. So today's presentation is also based on my previous work published in the Sociological Review. So so if you're interested, you can refer to this work. And I really welcome our comments. And this.

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you know. you know, communication, because I, my book, is still in a working progress. So thank you very much.

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Wow! That was really interesting. Thank you so much. I can't wait for this book.

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Okay? So we're gonna as I said, hold questions until the end. So you can really think about all of that material and think about your questions, but we're going to move on now to our second presenter here, Yuki Kobota. On friendship, marriage between non heterosexuals circumventing.

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I'm an Amato normativity in marriage in Japan.

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 My name is Kobota Yuki, from Nihong University in Tokyo, Japan.

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Which is now very famous because the the our chief board members got arrested 2 years ago, and embezzlement and tax evasion. So my Japanese Government, now pending the huge amount of subsidiary to the University.

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but not me. So I'm very happy to come here to have a chance to have a presentation here.

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I'm going to talk about a friendship marriage between non-hedral sections.

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okay. I just had it. Our table contents.

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The first background is same-sex marriage. There seems to be a there is a global trend towards marriage equality, including the homosexuals

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as the

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This ballsho set

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as well 34 countries with same sex, marriage, and 30 more than 30 countries, with the right almost equivalent to the marriage up to 2,003 and same sex partnership in Italy, even Italy and marriage right in Taiwan, 2,019, first in Asia

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and same sex marriage, of course, in New Zealand and Australia. For years behind the New Zealand. But no worries. Japan is the only country without marriage rights or protection to the homosexuals in State leader among the G. 7 countries, the first part partnership registration in Setagaya Andishibi awards in Tokyo in 2,015,

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and after that about 255 municipalities with local labor partnership registration, now covering 65.2% of the Japanese population.

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On the other hand. heterosexual

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people are having a different kind of hardships, heterosexual concerts, which means the sports and sports hunting

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in blue. I'm now in Japan.

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coin! This world of Konkatsu is coined in 2,007 by Masakiro, Yamara! It's very famous. Family so shoulders in Japan. Now, the marriage sports sports hunting market is a 15 billion Us. Dollar market, including Asian party and matching up and web

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in 2,000, only 1.4%

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of the out

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of the people who got married is by the marching services. But in 2,020 and 16.5% of the people got married through the these kind of matching services.

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But at the same time this kind of cut-throat competition for a

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for missing. Suppose sometimes resulting in the winners? No. Always result in resulting in the winners, and loses a concatu depression, or something bound out over, sometimes with a suicide

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against a background of the wage gap between men and women and lingering norms of a marriage and the parents with the Japan

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against these 2 backgrounds. Or we can say that in between those 2 backgrounds there seems to be an emerging trend of the friendship, marriage, and the Japanese context from around 2,015.

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Which means the growing number of the Asians and the couples of the friendship, marriage between non-hetal sexuals, increasing visibility of a friendship, marriage in mainstream media, including magazines and the books. This is the first book written by the like.

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the

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gay male who want to promote the French marriage in Japan 2,019,

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I'm going to give a definition to the friendship, marriage, the friendship, marriage is defined as the marriage without sexual or romantic relationships.

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 conceptually, the romantic marriage on the top. and a fake or bogus marriage on the bottom. So we can place the concept of a friendship. Marriage in between them.

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A. Theoretically I I don't know the exact, the concrete, the people, but the there must be, or there can be, a platinum marriage

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with romantic relationship about section relationship and

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contract marriage, as in Professor Cho's presentation, is with a sex with a romance, but without kids or with any kind of a family relationship.

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In between them friendship, marriage, can be defined, the marriage

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with family

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motives and mutual multi-mutral-profit motives, but without the sexual relationship and romantic relationships. So my objectives of and research is to illustrate how friendship, marriage in Java box through a mixed method approach in order to understand the relationship between romantic love, marriage and the parent between Japanese society.

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As for the previous and regional research, is, of course, this topic is related to the romantic lab, complex or heteronormativity. But there is a less number of the academic literature about the friendship marriages.

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First.

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theoretically or literally.

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friendship manages marriage based on not on the romantic love, but friendship irrelevant to their sexuality.

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but traditionally, as in the Professor, choice presentation marriage, which means a marriage between gay male and female to Cambridge themselves under heterosexuality and access, the right that marriage is provide.

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And third, recently I was told from my Chinese colleague in China a few studies about a homo-hateral marriage.

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including the and sometimes a fraudulent marriage to get married and have kids. By G. Mail

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last in Japan. I'm working on this. It's about a marriage.

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including the known homosexuals, such as asexual and non-sexual female escaping from the romantic marriage to friendship marriage in Japan.

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I need to introduce the the relatively new concept by Elizabeth Brake. She is

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from the field of ethics and the political philosophy. The concept of amatonormativity is very important.

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Amata! Novativity is defined as the assumption that all human beings pursue lab or romance, especially by means of monogamous long-term relationships.

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This is a concept coin after of course, heteronormativity, but it is also useful. To analyze the mono section which includes the

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homosexual and heterosexual social institutions.

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As for methodology. I'm taking up the mixed method. I he began with the number one participant observation in the parties among your friendship, married couples

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and the semi-structured interviews with the staff of the Friendship. Married Asians, which are also published, are already published, and the third, the Online Survey Research for Friendship. Married Couples.

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Now a little bit littered and in a hardship in the COVID-19 situation other about their motives and the processes and lives of friendship, marriages.

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and I will focus

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on to the last one. Today's presentation. Semi-structured interviews with one of the friendship married couples in consent through its own online interview, about their motives and the processes and lives and the hardship of friendship. Marriage

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these are the data of the interviewees. Most of them are modern studies of fortys, which means they first try to

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get married in heterosexual marriage, or being a single thought, they are going to being seen forever. But at some point of the ages they change their mind to

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access to the marriage in a various way, and they chose their friendship. Marriage?

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From F

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to I

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in we were sampled through the friendship. Married

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marriage, Asian X.

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And J. And K. Were sampled personally through SMS and acquaintances.

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they are from

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rural area, sometimes an Abba area.

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They are still in marriage more than 5 years.

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or already divorced, or they have some of them have more than 2 kids or one kid or no kids.

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All of the male are homosexual male, but our female is

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A

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has a variety. For example, G is a sexual female.

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 K is a heterosexual female.

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and

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as far an interview with a homosexual male they are. Sp. must be the sometimes a sexual female or no sexual female. Okay.

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I'm going to the data out of it.

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I'm going to. I ask them first why they want to get married so

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much. Okay?

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I'm going to pick up or extract some as sensors from the interview. Data number one. There are a persistent social norms for marriage as a full membership of the society

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number 2 social unknowns for marriage as the only or most desirable way to have or raise children. Number 3. Feeling of indebtedness and receive, procure mit or parenthood.

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I'm gonna show you the some kind of

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But they told me, okay, silent social pressure to get married from relatives, peers, and especially in work places considered for fridges.

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Once you get married, or I felt so unproductive being swinging single forever. Oh, the F is missing.

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The kids always need married parents, like my parents, stayed married for me.

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The second I asked them

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so why

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you don't get married in the romantic version in a normal match that of course they are sometimes homosexuals and a sexuals.

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but Number one, there is a heteronormativity of the Japanese society and number 2. There is also the amatronomativity of the modern marriage market

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interview. H. Told me only a few days, a privilege to come out and to access to the marriage like

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partnership in Japan.

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especially in rural areas without have an anonymity

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that because the Japanese rural area there are

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still, they maintain there is still the close relationship between the neighborhood or parents and derivatives

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said they never come out. I'm gay.

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or the a sexual email to me.

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I need to get married. But no marriage with romance and sex after hunting is supposed

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in the normal heterosexual marriage agent, because the most of the moments 99% of the people who won't get married

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is a heterosexual.

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and at least they want love and sex in the marriage life

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and question number 3.

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I asked them so why you chose the friendship. Marriage.

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I can say it in Number one, and social norms for parent food through marriage. Overwhelming norms of romances. Number 2. So skipping romantic procedure to get married and have family.

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female

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interview! You told me that for me

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this is a last hope to get married and to have a kids.

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The French Mary

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friendship, marriage can provide them the kids

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and marriage without sex and a romantic relationship.

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And I asked them. I I also asked them, why not contract marriage, but a friendship marriage? I know it's a complex, the definition, because

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the sum of the A. W. E.

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And try to. No, some of them need to be

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want their marriage life

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something more than a contract marriage, I mean some kind of interpersonal relationship, more than a contract or some kind of an intimacy.

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They told me the they need it.

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There's some kind of the intimate relationship for raising kids. Other parents.

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Am I doing this first

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5 min left.

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Okay? also.

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As a result. And in conclusion.

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friendship, marriage in Japan is utilized between known heterosexuals, including asexual

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and non-sexual females to access the privilege of legal matrimony, circumventing not only the heateronomativity, but also the amatonomativity of the unequal marriage law. In effect, in Japan.

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and also this is made possible against the background of the strong, and of marriage, especially to be apparent by overwhelming the norms, combined with romantic love and marriage, resulting in partially disorganizing a romantic lab complex.

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I didn't read it. I didn't write it down. I I heard him removed it, but in addition.

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you could say that

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in Japan

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or in Asian countries.

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 Married cattle might have never been so romantic compared to the Western countries.

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and from the some point of the

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compress the modernity thing because the

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the Japanese institutionalized marriage and the combined, the the emerging culture of the eligibility people, and the result could result in this kind of new friendship marriage in Japan.

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I mean, Ali. But that's it. Thank you.

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Okay.

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no. You still went to full. Yeah, that's great.

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Thank you very much. That was another really interesting presentation and giving us a lot to think about. So

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hmm.

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okay, does the presenter need to share it from there?

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Sheree Gregory: Okay, would you like me to share my screen? I can.

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Sheree Gregory: Oh, no, there's no sound. it's a

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okay. Now, yeah. Okay. Now, I see guys here. Okay, yes, sure you can. You can share your screen. I

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Sheree Gregory: just doing that now.

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Sheree Gregory: Okay, yes, we can see it fantastic. Okay. So our next presenter is Sherie Gregory and I will let you introduce your papers. just making sure. Oh, here we go. Sorry I was right at the end. There.

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Sheree Gregory: thank you. Thank you very much. Gail. and good morning, everyone My name is Dr. Sherie Gregory. I am a lecturer at Western Sydney University here in Australia. I'm going to be talking about one small project from a program of work that I've been doing over the last few years around screen industries.

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Sheree Gregory: and I'm particularly interested in the blurring of gender relations. paid work and care. I'm interested in the contradictions and the paradoxes. that that that are very much in this industry.

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so I I want to introduce the the screen industries. and particularly the work that goes on there that they present some interesting contradictions and paradox. So on the one hand, the screen industries espouse working values, such as freedom of expression.

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Sheree Gregory: our freedom of expression. Sorry. creativity, narrating the untold stories.

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Eriko Kimura: just making sure you can hear me. Okay, everything is okay.

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Sheree Gregory: They are cool to work in, particularly they highlight as a celebration of fame over the past decade or so, and in particular the Celebrity lifestyle the highlight flexibility in work. there's an exercising of choice in seeking autonomous and meaningful work, and much more.

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Sheree Gregory: There is a popular appeal in film and television directing work in particular, and that is leading a creative process and team and

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Sheree Gregory: forcing a creative vision.

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Sheree Gregory: Yeah, this appealing work is contradicted by gender inequality. and a lot of inequalities. but gender inequality in particular, that largely hampers women's advancement. in in screen industries. This is the case in Australia

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Sheree Gregory: and supported by screen Australia's gender equality policy since late 2,015. So in 2,015, this was recognized as quite a a critical problem.

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Sheree Gregory: in the screen industries. and so a gender equity policy was established in late 2,015, and rolled out in the the years proceeding. And this is very much surrounding the invisibility of women's screen direct

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Sheree Gregory: taking careers.

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Sheree Gregory: But more than that, it's backgrounded by a public calling out of inequalities across screen industries and countries in recent years. So, for example, the Me. 2 movements.

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Sheree Gregory: and speeches in the Us. We could see by award recipients, such as Gina Davis, Merrill Straight. Patricia quit, among others in Australia, as well, calling for more women behind the camera lens as filmmakers, and as as leaders, for example.

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So this paper is concerned with the obstacles to inequalities. sorry the obstacles to the qualities and gender equality in particular, in screen industry careers which are a vexing problem, continually for practitioners.

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Sheree Gregory: for industry, stakeholders and for audiences. And it's part of a neoliberal political discourse where a responsibility for a range of work in particular paid employment and family issues. is is pushed back onto the individual.

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Sheree Gregory: So whether it's the call inequality, the flood of sexual harassment of allegations in the media. It's now well documented that women in particular, including women who experience a disability or identify as Ljbtq women from non Anglo backgrounds and all that have caring demands are critically underrepresented

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Sheree Gregory: in positions of power, and in particular in screen directing careers in Australia and internationally. So what is a screen director. This is the voice of an Australian established film director who film director, who also works as a director of a wide range of screen productions in Australia, in Australia there is a freelance model in the the industry.

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Sheree Gregory: and this director also works in the Us. As a filmmaker in a large studio based model.

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Sheree Gregory: so, talking in pandemic, she was well aware of the complex quandaries and the judgment of directors, and the leadership required around the production of a feature film. And I use the category established to describe a screen director who has 20 or more industry years of industry experience.

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Sheree Gregory: So she says of the leadership role of the director in screen based production, that the vision is held by a director. It lives or dies with the director. If the director can't pull it together, it's gone.

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Sheree Gregory: It is absolutely essential that the director be a leader making a film, cannot achieve the strength of that narrative. If there is no leader as such, it cannot be done by a committee. So when studios say certain things, the executive say another, and the producers say another thing. The director is trying to save their art because something is wrong, and they don't want to have egg on their face. On that screen.

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Sheree Gregory: There has to be a leader who has the knowledge and strength to stand up and pull everything together. The director is a conductor of the elements of that narrative, and it has to be leadership

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Sheree Gregory: from a very creative this.

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Sheree Gregory: So the obstacles to gender equality and diversity in the screen industries continue to be a problem. for organizations, industry stakeholders for those professionals, those screen practitioners.

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Sheree Gregory: And

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Sheree Gregory: in this presentation I'm drawing on research about gender equality and diversity. And in the wider paper, the resilience of the figure of an ideal screen director as a man who has a stronghold

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Sheree Gregory: on work and the organizational imagination of the screen industries. So I'm interested in in what is an ideal worker? An ideal director? and how that might also be part of the the problem around inequality.

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Sheree Gregory: in, in terms of screen directing, we careers.

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Sheree Gregory: The visibility of gender inequality and and and diversity issues in the screen industries is a characteristic of this ideal director which reproduces an inequitable power, relation and divisions of labor.

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Sheree Gregory: Our current gender equality, policy, and diversity initiatives also contribute to the destabilization of the ideal of a normative screen director as citizen and worker, unencumbered

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Sheree Gregory: mit

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Sheree Gregory: for the screened industries in Australia. I've also been involved in a large national survey of the experience of workers employees.

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Sheree Gregory: at all different levels. And it all occupations all employment types. across the screen industries. and I have also been involved in implementing into and co-designing some policy initiatives in New South Wales and Australia. As a result of of

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Sheree Gregory: research at at my research into in the qualities in the screen industry. So this is very much part of it a a smaller project. And I'm just going to be talking about some

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Sheree Gregory: qualitative interviews today and not a lot. The larger national survey that I was involved in

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Sheree Gregory:  So drawing on qualitative interviews with emerging, and also established screen directors at Female screen directors in particular, in Australia, in the United Kingdom and also stakeholders in the Us. From screen and cultural and creative industries.

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Sheree Gregory: And the research began with this notion of a director as being critical to a productions identity, and also the the notion of the director as being the the leadership and the the key decision making role. I've been interested in in exploring, how women who are established or emerging screen directors, how they navigate, negotiate, and experience their career and their industry. 250,

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Sheree Gregory: how they negotiate the gender order that is advantaging and a ideal director. and also asking about the pathways, training access the enablers, the constraints in navigating a screen directory at directing career.

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Sheree Gregory: this has been framed theoretically, also by the work in Australia, in the Us. Around Joe Williams's ideal worker and marginalized carer or domesticity ideology. So the ideal work and marginalized kernel work in care regimes and gender order. by Barbara Pocock.

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Sheree Gregory: and also Raw and Connell around the gender order. and I've conducted some qualitative interviews with women who work as a as screen directors, and also some industry stakeholders. One.

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So how have women working as established or emerging directors navigated or experienced their career?

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Sheree Gregory: and what are the enablers? The constraints. and and

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Sheree Gregory: Well.

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Sheree Gregory: what if he used to be? You know the the barriers to a sustainable change in the working culture.

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Sheree Gregory: So let's to start with in in 2,015 women's under representation in screen directing in Australia was a key issue and it was such a key issue. that screen, Australia implemented and announced and implemented in the following years.

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Sheree Gregory: gender equality policy. to a address. The issue. so at the time women represented only 16% of employed directors in feature film

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Sheree Gregory: however, just following the conclusion of the policy. in 2,020. that

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Sheree Gregory: in in employment on the increase to 20% and that's just looking at employed feature film directors. So I'm not talking about documentary. where?

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Sheree Gregory: Historically, there are more women in in documentary, but just looking at at feature film directors.

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Sheree Gregory:  so more broadly. there is also the industry, generally speaking, this is much more the focus of the large industry. that I was involved in.

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Sheree Gregory: So there's invisible presence of working mothers and carers.

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Sheree Gregory:  sorry. I think my Internet and it is presence of working mothers and carers persist in screen based employment in Australia. Despite significant changes to the role and the position of women as carers in advanced economies since the second way feminist movement. So the invisibility of care, and that care work which is integral to screen industries both onset and offset.

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Sheree Gregory: and this also the under representation of of women as mothers, and as mother or care of work in leadership, decision making roles in screen industry, such as as screen film, directing, directing, and TV.

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Sheree Gregory: it is documented, there is documented gender inequality, and 2015. French argued that gender does matter, that there is a strong business case for increasing women's participation in all sectors of screen.

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Sheree Gregory: and that diversity is a driver of innovation promoting women in he creative roles will generally increase participation in the industries as well as increase diversity and content on screens.

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Sheree Gregory: The French further found that women directors made film with female protagonists 74% of the time, and that male directors, however.

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Sheree Gregory: Also Davidson points out that men dominate feature films, for example, where 85 of directors in 2,015 were male and equally represented in film school school graduations.

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Sheree Gregory: marking it, promising start to their careers. However, they often do not progress creative at the leadership level. So in this way, studying the careers, the pathways, and the obstacles of women's screen directors is about studying the under representation of women in leadership

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Sheree Gregory: as well.

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Sheree Gregory: and also the inflexibility of spring career is also part of what the problem is in terms of in relation to parenting. Motherhood can. and it's a key pre problem highlighted in in other research in the industry.

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Sheree Gregory:  so the undervaluing of women and mothers care families.

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Oh, shoot!

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I'm sorry. I was just trying to indicate 5 min. But please share your screen again.

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Oh, or did we lose?

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Oh, I think. Okay.

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sure you are you back?

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Sheree Gregory: Yeah, I am. I'm sorry about that. Oh, yeah, please go ahead and share your screen again. But there's 5 min left.

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Sheree Gregory: Thank you. Everyone for your patience. I'm sorry I didn't

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Sheree Gregory: even get a warning that there was any.

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Sheree Gregory: Okay, yeah, we can see your screen now.

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Sheree Gregory: Okay, I'm sorry I'. It's almost like I've got double. Okay.

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Sheree Gregory: we'll get there.

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Sheree Gregory:  okay. So my research question was, very much. And the dynamics

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Sheree Gregory: that shape women's participation in cultural. What is the contribution of gender equality policy. how to directors who are carers navigate, correct caring and having a career as a film director. and this is based on qualitative in a small number of qualitative interviews

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Sheree Gregory: and screen based production. particularly industry. looking at film. oh, sorry participants with a film television advertising animation. For example, their pathways in training and career, they lived experiences of factors that facilitate and constrain participation in directing 150.

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So the business?

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 no. I,

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I think the Internet is just very spotty.

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Sheree Gregory: yeah, i'm, sorry i'm, not even

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okay.

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Sheree Gregory: give it a card.

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Sheree Gregory: So the participants were aged between 20 and 60 years old. emerging directors established directors and also other industry stakeholders working in Australia, the Us. And the Uk. I just want to canvas or very much show a snapshot

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Sheree Gregory: of one participants. Story to to illustrate. the inequality and the sexism. and the barriers. so this participant is established working more than 20 years as screen director employed freelance in Australia. they're entering into training. They described as an opportunity to study film as a game changer

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Sheree Gregory: and there was gendering in their career

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Sheree Gregory: a lack of access, discouraging experiences. I I didn't know I was a film director. I just thought I was. So there was also a a reference to a a woman as a director. a pay gap as well. So directors really really know what each other earns. there is also, evidence of motherhood penalty. and

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Sheree Gregory: looking at You know my my graduate film did quite well. I was invited to screen it festival internationally. I graduated and had an attachment straight out of film school. however. I was junior, and was often an additional runner rather than you know. I pushed into a

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Sheree Gregory: and and also gender in training on participant. Not to that. My my lecturer, I 3 jobs to through film school, and I was pretty burnt out by my third year and my graduate film. I remember showing in my film and him saying he didn't. He didn't, did much of it. He asked me what I was going to do after fill school, and I said I wanted to work as a director.

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Sheree Gregory: Hala said hardly any from this course? Where does work as a director, and none are women.

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Sheree Gregory: But as this participant noted that on the one hand, it galvanized me to prove him wrong, it was demoralized.

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Can you give us a very brief concluding like what what the key? Take takeaways are. I'm I'm I'm also wondering if

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Sheree Gregory: if this might have happened in other sessions. you know, in in Melbourne at the moment, because I'm

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not getting any instability. I I

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Sheree Gregory: in noted at my end. it's just completely dropping out.

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Sheree Gregory:  yeah, not sure. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

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Sheree Gregory: okay, so overall. Some building blocks. so screen directors, and particularly women need supporters and cheerleaders. Successful directors who have children also have partners that facilitate them in managing career and care. many women in Australia, also gripped by stumbling blocks which are describing visions of what constitute

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Sheree Gregory: contemporary motherhood. So these are described as what they don't see coming. they're less explicit, but they're quite powerful constraints. So this silence is not talked about caring and family. demands for example, working as though you don't have children and parenting as though you don't have a job

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Sheree Gregory: hiding the fact that you have children? Comments such as, Have you got your childcare problem under control now when, when when speaking with an agent and a a a about work

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Sheree Gregory: another participant, I sat in and and edit recently on a show where a female director and I presented an editor cut to the producer. His comment was not not bad for a couple of shelters, and and that's quite a a negative term in Australia. and proceeded to call other actresses names. it would be considered unbelievable conduct in any workplace, and I came away from it. Anger!

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Sheree Gregory: I I worked so hard I knew I'd done a really good job at transpired network had loved the episodes that that I directed, but to be diminished by a compliment or so-called compliment related to my gender is so disrespectful, and also the language you never hear a man being described by that or or female directors

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Sheree Gregory: also what is unseen as well. She would rather I turn up drunk than turn up late because I dropped my kids off to school. So there is a very clear valuing or devaluing a family, and of care responsibilities, having children, childcare, family and also

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Sheree Gregory: we actually often don't come back to the film industry. So how can we explain this situation of

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Sheree Gregory: and that work in these experiences. the pathways. that I might suggest a a care focused policy approach that is critical to better understanding and supporting the live to realities, working in Australian screen industry, so much more of a a, a focus on care. And indeed, this is also some of the

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Sheree Gregory: as some of the conclusions we were drawing out of from the the large survey as well, that I'm more focused on reframing work and care dynamics to safeguard the talent in the screen industries

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Sheree Gregory: and female directors and not caring about, caring and caring about care, undermines talent, and it perpetuates existing industrial and social inequalities.

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okay, I'll finish up there. Thanks.

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Okay, thank you very much.

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I think

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you want to come up and take the questions.

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Do we need to change anything on this?

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Okay?

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And do we want the yeah, can the presenters come up here?

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Yeah, if you want to? If you have a question, and you just go to the microphone and we have very conference.

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Be great

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if you're on Zoom, please put your question in the chat

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on 2.

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Okay.

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so this really isn't my specialty. I'm here just to add, of interest. I'm more in. My name's Kathy Anderson. I'm from the UN. Of Sydney, and I'm in the sociology of health and illness, doing a Ph. D. From just here out of total interest. And it's just such a good array of talks.

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so thank you. And to cherie, I think, on the screen. But I specifically want to ask I don't know your name. Sorry about. Yeah. Hi, just, I'm just interested. talking about particularly asexuality you're mentioning in your talk. And I'm just curious. And maybe even in the Chinese context as well.

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Maybe I was speaking off the cuff here, but And I don't know in America either, but I don't think asexuality is very.

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very well understood in the queer communities. So I'm even in the Western countries it could be wrong. I'm not sure. But so I'm just interested if there is a high level of understanding in maybe Japan. And okay, I'm just in just curious to hear. yeah, just about that.

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And, cherie, that was so fantastic and I guess some of what I do intersects with care, caring for, you know, chronically ill people. so I think the caring gender issue goes over over, overlaps over so many industries and affect so many of us.

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I think maybe I was thinking to ask you.

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maybe just the shift in Covid. You know how we shifted overnight to knowing that we couldn't hide our children. You know we're on zoom conferences, and kids are turning up in the background, and whether I just any comments on that, whether there's that's been a bit of a positive shift to know that.

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you know.

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just trying to think somewhat that we

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yeah, there's just been a shift in that invisibility of of care and bringing that to the forefront.

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Sheree Gregory: I'm Gail. Do you want me to address that last question or the

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yep.

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and then I pop up to you.

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If I understand your Christian factory, it is about a after hobby situation.

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Yeah. Okay.

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After 2,015. First, we have

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that, not national but municipal municipal, the the, the, the the small West and Tokyo City studied the municipal level partnership registration

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things up

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changed a completely that I

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he's not even imagine the national news broadcast about the LGBT. It is homosexual, a sexual bisexual thing. So

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it's a. It was an epoch making that after that a lot of the TV program and Youtube channel explain about diversity of the sexuality, not only the heterosexuality of homosexuality, but also about a sexuality or bisexuality.

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Now.

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in a superficial letter, of course, it is very common worst for the most of the people.

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thank you. for this question and my responders, I asked them a question about self, identify sexual identity, and then, but I don't have a people who self identify as a sexual. I have people who 3 as self identify as a bisexual of 4 pen sexual.

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and then 3 transgender and one career, and then the others are homosexual and in Chinese society, in outside of mainland China. I think there's no, for example in Hong Kong. In our census. We don't have any questions about sexual identity or sexuality or sexual practices.

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so we don't know about You know what is actually a sexuality. But I know that, for example, among the young people there's a lots of self identify increasingly about sexuality. But I think I I don't. Whether they understand what it means or they agrees, or what it means to be a section. So maybe they will be using the term you know, especially among the young people. They get it from the Internet. But I think there's no agreement about what does it mean? Yeah.

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But it's so I think America has some decent. But the

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yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna speak on this on behalf of a

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knowledge I have from Megan Carol. She's probably the primary asexualities person in sociology. In America. she herself identifies as a sexual I do you think, prior to her, we did not really have great literature about asexuality.

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related to America. I will say

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my first interactions with asexuality actually came out of Asian literature. And there were pockets and communities within Japan. I believe that we're living what we would identify behaviorally as asexual and they did identify a celibate and so forth. so it's interesting because I think it.

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20 to 10 years ago a lot of people would confuse it with celibacy and speak to it as celibacy. But if you think about it as being a little bit more on a spectrum, you know different people have different drives, and you may even have different drives in your time

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of life. you know different ages and so forth, of which you feel more or less sexual. and it does seem. We do have evidence now that there's enough people out there. who suggest that there's evidence to believe that they have no drive, no sexual drive. And so that's my understanding of what asexuality is from the American perspective.

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Thank you. Next question. Oh, wait, and then sherry

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your question.

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Sheree Gregory: Thank you thanks so much. I I I guess. a couple of points. if we think about. Since COVID-19 we have seen the creative and cultural industries, or a cultural labor in Australia, the Us. And around the world shut down. So a lot of the

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Sheree Gregory: I I suppose, identified cancel culture of productions closing. I remember when Broadway in New York City closed a lot of cultural labor and cultural work museums and everything close. So there was a pivoting. I think we've artists could. I do recall in Australia where? there's some data.

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Sheree Gregory: production. Make it sorry set designers. who had then started moving into advertising and designing covid work at home. Laptop stands desks So they they kind of pivoted their skills. But it's been There has been quite a clear also leaving out of

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Sheree Gregory: artists and work is a cultural work. you know a a lot of action around that. a, particularly around. Also with COVID-19 policies. and the second thing is that the yeah. That is a great point that the majority of this hidden care, responsibility and care work. that was happening at home, and it became quite visible with this, the closing of schools and childcare centers.

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Sheree Gregory: look, I I am not aware of any data or broad scale, or or or small data, small study data looking at an emerging from all pathways out of COVID-19. But I guess one of the key issues in Australia in the industry has been that it has been a freelance model work where a lot of artists

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Sheree Gregory: the to make as directors. don't have access to adequate policy or to to support them. Prior to the pandemic. I also did some work around I I suppose the freelance model, and how how do How to act as

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Sheree Gregory: navigate that work and care within actually not fitting into a standard employment if 9 to 5 Monday, Friday. Schedule. yeah. But the great questions.

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Hello, thanks for the presentations. And they're really interesting studies. And thanks a lot. So I have many questions. I have to keep it short. So my question the first one is for a toy. So it's excellent to bring into class in the discussions about LGBT. Community in China. But then I'm also wondering, would you consider bringing in the temporal dimension. So the temporal dimensions. What I mean is the H, the live course and the cohort effect

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of the LGBT community, and how this temporal dimension intersects with class. So this is the first questions for you, and the second question for you also actually follow up question.

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because, as you and many people, we know that to be a women or to be a man in China is very different. So you gripping gate and lesbian together.

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which? yeah, I know that because you have enormous data. So I would like to know more about the specificity and how you trying to display this specificity or specific constraint that faced by these 2 like not these 2 only, but get an Sb to be specific. And so that's my questions for you. And then for Professor cobot. Ta, is that correct? Thank you.

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So I really appreciate your presentation a lot. And I really wanted to go to Japan to practice that

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friendship is good But then I also really wanted to know how they experience this marriage, because they married for like 2 to 3 years. At this I see 5 years for one couple, so I really wanted to know how the experiences are they for feeling? Are they satisfied? They happy. So is that actually challenging the so called dominant marriage, heterosexual, romantic marriage. So

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this kind of so-called alternative form of marriage did really good job right? So that's a good questions and also a small questions you mentioned about the agents that have to form this family and friendship marriage. So what is the role of this agent. So thank you.

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Great

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thank you. thank you. we'll be for this excellent questions. they have really difficult questions. But we're trying to answer them. about the temporal directions, or turn pro Effect? I think when we're talking about time. in my research there at least 3 min of time at the first one is about cohort differences. So you know. I can see that there's a in the differences in the pigeon, and those were going in the 1,900 seventys, 1,999

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E. I think the cohort differences, and maybe about the historical context and the social context that they're, you know, being situated. So those who boy in the 1,900 seventys they grew up in a in a social atmosphere where homosexuality was much less visible. 250.

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And then, where there's in a path to develop the identity was much later. So they're more likely to have experience or even enter heterosexual relationship. And before they fund or confirm or ascertain their homosexual relationship.

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So that's why, for example, the first story of 10 belongs to this. yeah. And then But of course you know for this. you know the co-host in the 1970 s. You know later. the capacity to, for example, disentangle themselves from their whole heterosexual relationship. I think this is very much mediated by, you know, class resources one.

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Now another dimension of time is about age, I think. marriage practices or intimacy is also very much related to age, and because our society or the Chinese decide to have very strong life course norms. So, for example, in the Chinese society, and there's a known that women need to get married before they're 30, and men are also expected to get married before 30, otherwise they will be stigmatized.

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and I think the norm about age or a life course. Not interestingly, in the LGBT community, especially in the gay community, is still much more harsher compared to the heterosexual community. So a gay men, you know, entering 20 s. Or mid 20 s. Will be considered old

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and unattractive. So when I was interviewing talking to my respondents. I was really surprised, because then they constantly, you know, I brought up this anxiety

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about that. You know, there's 2 single. They're becoming an attractive and a non marketable in the gay community. So this I haven't seen in the Lesbian community or among the Lesbian respondents. So if you have looking at the you know life stage course, Norm, or the age.

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I think it seems that we will expect, you know, that heterosexual people are experiencing a much harsher lives course norms, or you know, the pressure of aging, or in our in a society stematization against all the people. But in effect, in reality, the gay community and not the norm against aging is much harsher.

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Okay, so this is second dimension of temporarily. The third-dimensional sample temporality, I think, is about the

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You know, the live stage about transitions into different. You know, stage I think this is interesting is because, when I I didn't have time to talk about. But I I conceptualized marriage as a stop of a so called intimate career. And this concept of intimate career is developed by us. So Canadian Canadian sociologists.

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Adam Green. So Adam Green argues that you know that you know from.

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you know, casual sex encounter.

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Sorry

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in case of size, encounter to intimacies to marriage.

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you know, for many individuals. They these are. you know, the careers of our charter choice.

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Sorry, and I think what is really important about you know my responders life histories instead, you know, for the legal barriers, or that you know social stigmatization

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or the discrimination they have, you know, a taken away the possibility of transitions in their intimate careers. So, for example, a lot of you know, heterosexual people, you know, when they decide to transition from intimate relationship into marriage. You know they use marriage, as you know, a sign, a signal, or a ritual to mark their commitment

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to the relationship. And I think this is really important for maintaining the relationship. But then my respondents especially, I know those who a smile for marriage, you know they you know, we sense that, you know, being a sexual minority, they were, you know, taking away this possibility while other people can have this in our expectation.

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you know, and I think this is about the fourth dimension of the temporarily. It's about the future. they they cannot, you know. So this is a title, you know, without this possibility they cannot. It's really difficult to imagine a future together, you know, you cannot plan okay, many things. So I thought, I'm I'm talking too long. So so I will. I just quickly.

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Okay, I would just quickly answer the question about Jen that indeed my, my, the connective title of my book is class and gender of Lgbtq stories. So I did look agenda, and I think, there are 2 aspects of agenda that I look at. The first aspect is structure gender in the qualities. So you can see, for example, especially in the Lesbian communities

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at the so-called home boys. because they expected to be the provider of you know the you know, at the couple, and and then they always feeling that they're competing with heterosexual men.

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And so, for example, in my second story, Lynn, she lost her first partner to a rich divorce, heterosexual man, and so for her it was the structural in ecology that you know which many women in China that is in. I'm making her situation difficult. I have to give you some background. China is the only country, I think a few. One of the few countries that have experienced wider gender gap in pay.

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you know. so this is one esp. Of agenda. The second aspect of gender is more about gender identity and also gender roles in, you know, internal relationship. So Lin, in my example, she is a T so-called Tom Boy and her panel, their so-called P. Of P. Means a woman.

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And so for her. you know that that this. You know this self and agenda identity, and also you know the gender embodiment this shape, you know her options for marriage practices. For example, she, indeed, I try to have a a contract marriage, and try to have a so called nominal marriage with a gay man. But then her proposal is rejected by the gay men's family

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because she looked too muscular.

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So so I think these are really interesting examples. Yeah.

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thank you for the question, because my presentation today is focused on the process throughout marriage until they get married.

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it's understandable. You you are interested in the

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friendship marriage life.

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 I'm going to pick up some example. Most of the friendship married a couple

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I thought you, as you saw as 2 kids. You

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no, so

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because of the now, it not necessarily, but it could indicate they decide to have a second case means they sort of satisfy their marriage life

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because

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it is difficult to explain, but they are very happy because

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the knowledge is what they wanted. They can introduce their

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heterosexual like partner to their parents, and sometimes friend.

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and sometimes with a neighborhood.

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So, but of course they have to hike or cover up. They actually not have sections, and they are not

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that they did not get married through love or romantic relationship.

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So I ask them, they they to me, and they are going to get it cyclic

435
01:30:54.530 --> 01:31:08.549
even to their parents, or even to their friends the only closet to friends. They confine the fact. and they are now considering they're gonna tell this function to their kids in a future.

436
01:31:09.760 --> 01:31:15.380
But there are also cons, it's a difficult experiment.

437
01:31:15.890 --> 01:31:18.829
Okay, friendship. Marriage in Japan is

438
01:31:18.940 --> 01:31:19.840
a.

439
01:31:20.090 --> 01:31:28.269
it's very, very single issued marriage. So in short, they got married

440
01:31:28.400 --> 01:31:30.480
because they want kids.

441
01:31:30.780 --> 01:31:41.199
So they are wondering they are qualified what will happen when they finish China racing? No.

442
01:31:41.690 --> 01:31:45.830
So if I'm a gay man, I get married.

443
01:31:45.970 --> 01:31:50.710
Our sexual women. We get together. We got married just

444
01:31:51.280 --> 01:32:06.109
in order to up get some really skills. So after 20 years. and the kids are gone from the near house. But are they still going to be together forever.

445
01:32:06.450 --> 01:32:10.329
but without any romantic relations, or

446
01:32:10.380 --> 01:32:18.740
some kind of intermediate relationship? So they are, of course, building some kind of a relationship, but they don't have any role model there.

447
01:32:18.930 --> 01:32:20.000
So

448
01:32:20.180 --> 01:32:27.279
the some of the respondents told me they got horrified. What happened? What will happen in 20 min.

449
01:32:27.580 --> 01:32:31.090
And as for a friendship marriage agent

450
01:32:31.360 --> 01:32:41.899
 so basically, they do the same thing as the heterosexual, much as they put money and they

451
01:32:42.050 --> 01:32:44.869
matches the potential

452
01:32:45.000 --> 01:32:46.140
couples.

453
01:32:46.210 --> 01:32:50.860
and they advise what to wear, where to eat, or

454
01:32:51.110 --> 01:32:58.519
sometimes how to communicate with each other. So like in the heterosexual management.

455
01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:01.229
And it costs

456
01:33:03.750 --> 01:33:04.690
10.

457
01:33:04.890 --> 01:33:05.730
Yeah.

458
01:33:07.130 --> 01:33:11.299
that's how you use data enrollment

459
01:33:11.890 --> 01:33:13.700
and 5,

460
01:33:15.200 --> 01:33:16.230
I'm in

461
01:33:16.700 --> 01:33:22.350
a month or something.

462
01:33:22.880 --> 01:33:26.930
because not huge, but not little.

463
01:33:27.090 --> 01:33:38.090
which indicates that my response, my interview is, are biased to the relatively upper cards or middle class people.

464
01:33:38.310 --> 01:33:45.410
Before the this kind of French and marriage agent up here

465
01:33:45.540 --> 01:33:48.310
there used to be a grass.

466
01:33:48.400 --> 01:33:49.420
would

467
01:33:49.470 --> 01:33:56.830
the network or community they are trying to find the possible friendship and response.

468
01:33:57.070 --> 01:34:07.200
 so I think I need to go on to the research that kind of the other part of the French environment in India. Thank you so much.

469
01:34:08.370 --> 01:34:14.610
There, a good question. I also have a question. Not okay. Right? Thank you.

470
01:34:17.150 --> 01:34:18.760
Okay.

471
01:34:18.860 --> 01:34:40.910
okay, thank you. And thank you all for your sharing of very inspiring works. I'm shining from the Chinese University of Ponko. I have a correction for Professor Bota. It's kind of similar to Luke's question, but and you partly address it. That is what the actual practice is to form and do the friendship, marriage in Japan

472
01:34:40.910 --> 01:34:58.220
like, for example, do they share properties, and what kinds of support do they give each other. And how do the gender norms and inequalities of the marriage market and marriage institution in Japan affects their practices, or how do they tackle with these issues.

473
01:34:58.220 --> 01:35:12.409
I'm interested in these actual practices because they may give us some hints about how this amateur normativity is challenged or reinforced, or some kind of being paid around by this friendship marriage. Thank you.

474
01:35:17.180 --> 01:35:18.150
Okay.

475
01:35:19.600 --> 01:35:21.429
As for

476
01:35:24.210 --> 01:35:31.280
I only interviewed with 90 min or 100 min, so I didn't know the the.

477
01:35:31.440 --> 01:35:37.379
I don't know the depth of their marriage life, but they told me

478
01:35:37.530 --> 01:35:44.599
they are like a normal couple because they live together and share the

479
01:35:44.650 --> 01:35:51.300
money together because they have to raise their kids like normal family

480
01:35:51.460 --> 01:36:02.969
in in Japanese social reference system. No. So we'll show the chat-raising support what we call it.

481
01:36:04.250 --> 01:36:11.020
It's very poor. So the women have to usually quit their job.

482
01:36:12.160 --> 01:36:15.310
No, usually more. Okay is there? Frequently

483
01:36:15.500 --> 01:36:21.029
you need a quick job to raise their kids, because there is only

484
01:36:21.240 --> 01:36:28.950
not all of the marriage can you get needs or not, child racing support.

485
01:36:29.060 --> 01:36:30.720
So the

486
01:36:31.320 --> 01:36:39.379
women who want to have kids and have to quit their job, will get married and get pregnant.

487
01:36:39.550 --> 01:36:44.319
So even in a sexual or women.

488
01:36:44.540 --> 01:36:45.830
I have to

489
01:36:46.000 --> 01:36:49.789
C of the relatively rich memory.

490
01:36:50.080 --> 01:36:57.279
and they got married, friendship married, and they quit their job and their housewives.

491
01:36:57.810 --> 01:37:02.110
And so that's why they have to basically share

492
01:37:02.270 --> 01:37:06.670
the the household money. Okay. the

493
01:37:07.130 --> 01:37:08.160
I must

494
01:37:08.530 --> 01:37:10.220
by the kitchen.

495
01:37:10.580 --> 01:37:16.519
I think that is predominantly about the support around someone. Okay, the

496
01:37:17.190 --> 01:37:19.880
women for me that

497
01:37:20.140 --> 01:37:30.989
the gay husband is very, very eager to raise their kids his kids, because that is the purpose of the marriage.

498
01:37:31.320 --> 01:37:33.379
but

499
01:37:34.180 --> 01:37:36.580
they have to

500
01:37:37.490 --> 01:37:46.040
money, it will support their wife and kids. So it has a limitation. I mean, not a 50 50 division labor.

501
01:37:46.660 --> 01:37:50.840
But basically, the main purpose of the marriage is a kid

502
01:37:50.870 --> 01:37:52.079
into guess a lot.

503
01:37:52.920 --> 01:37:54.400
Is that. Okay, thank you.

504
01:37:55.340 --> 01:38:09.240
Alright. So we have like, 10 more minutes, so we'll take your. I will do it. I will do it quick. Sorry. Hi, thank you for your presentations. great panel. My name is Hal Jen. I'm a finally a Phd. Candidate at the University in Melbourne, Australia.

505
01:38:09.240 --> 01:38:33.909
I have questions for Professor Joe. So My first question is, what's the institution of implication of same-sex marriage overseas for your participants who are currently in China. So I interviewed Chinese, queer female international students in Australia. And for the marriage, or we call de facto partnership in Australia, it's more like a a component for their migration pathway.

506
01:38:34.050 --> 01:39:02.229
and I just want to know if you find a similar response. in your interviews. And that link to my second question is, since they don't find marriage as a symbol of commitment, they financial bonding of financial spending is more like a strong symbol of commitment in their relationship. And I just want to know in your participants narratives, how do they frame financial bounding or spending? And, as you just mentioned in this case, like.

507
01:39:02.230 --> 01:39:10.399
That huge amount of money her partner request her to spend, and which she could not afford.

508
01:39:10.450 --> 01:39:23.660
alternative mechanism of expressing love, or it's more like. the only available part for same-sex partners. to embark on heterosexual marriage, which is the financial part. Thank you.

509
01:39:27.300 --> 01:39:56.149
so thank you. so? really interesting questions. And the first question is about the marriage register, same size marriage register overseas. Do this marriage have any implications for their lives in China. as you say. You know, there's no implications, because Chinese States, you know, doesn't recognize this form of marriage, but it has implications when they want to apply for, you know, migrating overseas

510
01:39:56.150 --> 01:40:13.990
and increasingly the LGBT people, especially those who have a para offices, education experiences. And you know there. So we turn these from, you know, for example, student migration in the West. They want to have this possibility because of the intensified.

511
01:40:13.990 --> 01:40:36.600
you know, stay repression against LGBT people. So among the the people that I interview a lot of them are really thinking about what? Just what just tearing their marriage oversee. And this is for future migration planning. So even if they haven't migrated, you know, they are thinking that this is a possibility that want to have. Okay, so this is the first.

512
01:40:36.600 --> 01:41:03.930
answer. The second one is that I think. for my respondents, it's really difficult to disentangle the symbolic or the emotional from the financial. Because I think the the Chinese culture is maybe my bias. But I have a sense getting for my respondents is that financial commitments is the most you know, at the important

513
01:41:03.930 --> 01:41:15.849
way to express emotional bonding. Okay? So and lots of the which is the same-sex couples they call their own properties.

514
01:41:15.920 --> 01:41:44.420
Yeah. And then they also, for example. But then, they yeah, they? But then, for this is really interesting, because for my gay respondents. and let's with with, let's be with one that says that's difference, for let's be respondents. If they have an intimate relationship. If they are cohabitating, they tend to have a share. you know finances. But for the gay respondents. Even if they are cohabitating, they are practice split finance.

515
01:41:44.420 --> 01:41:50.930
But of course I think they do it in order to distinguish themselves from another type of

516
01:41:50.930 --> 01:42:06.979
a more exchange. gay relationship, because in my research I also find a lot of very younger, gay men as seeking older, gay men. for, you know, security and support. So there's 2 types of gay couples. One is

517
01:42:07.230 --> 01:42:26.710
in this type of gay couples with a really clear financial inequalities, and then they say, not. The older gay man is supporting the younger one. But then there's another type of gay couple state, and I insist on split finance because they emphasis. You know financial independence as a foundation of muscularity.

518
01:42:32.889 --> 01:42:48.330
the biggest, determinant determinant. must be there, the kids, you know, if they are not loving each other. If they have a kid, they need to share the majority of their income. So

519
01:42:48.629 --> 01:42:51.549
a couple of the ways I was kids.

520
01:42:51.799 --> 01:43:01.520
It depends on the I mean, the second biggest determinant is would be the income, even a heterosexual couples.

521
01:43:01.540 --> 01:43:10.630
for example, the lawyer and the doctor sometimes share only a small part of their incomes, because it's huge, and

522
01:43:10.840 --> 01:43:24.720
but, on the other hand, for example, some kind of a shared household among the low-income people have to share the majority of the incomes to live on.

523
01:43:25.379 --> 01:43:36.379
So I don't think it's a romantic relationship determines the extent of how much percentage of the income this year.

524
01:43:37.250 --> 01:43:37.920
Okay?

525
01:43:42.170 --> 01:44:05.869
thanks. Professor Cho and Professor Cookbook have for your interesting shadow. I have 2 questions. One is for Professor Choi. since Social class is also an important theoretical component in your research. May I know about how do you defy or conceptualize this concept?

526
01:44:05.870 --> 01:44:32.799
Another one is for Professor Kobuka I wish to know more about for people situating in such a marital relationship. How do they receive child carrying support from other family members or the communities or society, because in China parents generally seek for childcare support from their parents.

527
01:44:32.840 --> 01:44:40.790
Yes, that elder Jen and generation play is very significant can Rose in tiring. Thank you so much.

528
01:44:45.800 --> 01:45:15.729
Okay, yeah. So, very quickly about this is the question I try to. I hope that nobody was asking. But thank you very much. It's really important. And I I I don't about to see in the conceptualization of class that I put to defunds class as people who share in a similar position based on that. And also so and also economic distinctions. And so for good to You know, the the major rain for sociological analysis.

529
01:45:15.730 --> 01:45:22.170
This, so that his class analysis in the include 3 major concepts. One is of a few

530
01:45:22.170 --> 01:45:47.170
fuel, is about the rem of our social lives and other one is capital. So it's about, you know, different forms of capital, and the third one is a habitus. And so, in my analysis, I I you know, because I don't want to see in framework. So I, for example, in my papers I distinguish about the intimacy of the sexual field, which is a a concept developed by Adam Grim. And then I, Adam Green. And then we did

531
01:45:47.170 --> 01:46:07.709
develop the concept of intimacy, feel. And then so we are looking about. You know how? you know the class resources, different forms of capital, for example, economic capital, cultural capital and social capital shape. You know, individuals, you know, doing of intimacy in this type of fields. So this is a quick answer to you.

532
01:46:07.710 --> 01:46:09.110
did I answer you.

533
01:46:11.900 --> 01:46:14.060
Thank you so much for the question.

534
01:46:16.470 --> 01:46:17.790
Okay, I

535
01:46:18.210 --> 01:46:19.510
I think you.

536
01:46:20.160 --> 01:46:32.800
I think the friendship married couple is so different from the headers actually married couple, because sometimes we say we cannot

537
01:46:33.370 --> 01:46:39.490
continue to be nervous for about when we get married, because we have to

538
01:46:39.530 --> 01:46:51.459
change our intimacy into something more less passionate but more stable

539
01:46:51.590 --> 01:46:54.079
friendship. Married a couple

540
01:46:54.310 --> 01:47:00.559
don't need to hide on it today is whole of their family or marriage life. Just that

541
01:47:00.570 --> 01:47:03.960
beginning, I mean, you know. So

542
01:47:04.270 --> 01:47:05.450
this marriage?

543
01:47:05.480 --> 01:47:09.830
They did not begin with a romantic relationship. But this is something now.

544
01:47:10.150 --> 01:47:16.489
Ok, some kind of a face face, or it's going to trust each other.

545
01:47:16.630 --> 01:47:17.770
So the

546
01:47:19.070 --> 01:47:23.130
we and just what was that?

547
01:47:23.270 --> 01:47:27.440
The this period of the French franchise couple? This is almost the same

548
01:47:27.680 --> 01:47:31.019
to the head down century.

549
01:47:34.890 --> 01:47:36.900
Okay? So

550
01:47:37.320 --> 01:47:41.850
it's not so different from the

551
01:47:42.220 --> 01:47:43.700
is actually

552
01:47:43.750 --> 01:47:50.229
different at the beginning. but not so much different and ongoing in the management process.

553
01:47:51.780 --> 01:47:59.979
Did I answer your question? Yeah, I think there was one more question in the back that if you don't mind, we still have 2 min.

554
01:48:06.870 --> 01:48:27.030
Okay? Sorry final questions. I'm Alex Shan from a so called University Japan. this is This is the question for for 2 professors here. it seems like China and Japan are going into a very different direction. we for China, turning into a more authoritarian, which means that it has has been a more conservative

555
01:48:27.310 --> 01:48:54.319
controls on how marriage should be. And, on the other hand, Japan has been gaining this momentum in recognizing same-sex marriage. As you know, the the reason one of the agenda being discussed in the Parliament is to recognize same sex marriage. So I'm wondering for for 2 professors here. How would you? speculate? The, you know, if you are going to do research on marriage, you know, in in China and Japan? how would the

556
01:48:54.320 --> 01:49:07.760
positions look like, you know? Cause both of your research are are all about intimacy and marriage in the. And this is an institutionalized scenario. Yeah.

557
01:49:09.290 --> 01:49:33.459
I I think I thank you very much for this question. indeed! When I told my colleagues in Hong Kong that I'm writing about Lgbtq in China. They already told me that this is a very sensitive topic a few years ago. the LGBT academic research in China. They could already could not have conferences or open door conferences.

558
01:49:33.460 --> 01:49:57.270
They have to have a closed door discussions. So I will not think that I can go back to call that data. you know, physically. Now, I may, I can still use the Internet, or you know other. you know, zoom to call and all the collect data. But about, you know, dissimulating my research in China, I don't think it's possible even closed door tox is not possible.

559
01:49:57.270 --> 01:50:20.999
And also, for example, if I want to translate my research into Chinese, I could not do it in China anymore. So I think in China, this is really very dramatic, I know. And tightening of this. you know space for Lgbtq people. And I think this is something that deserves much more international attention. but but of course, as long as there are other human rights issues.

560
01:50:24.810 --> 01:50:32.130
thank you. As I mentioned in my presentation. I'm interested. I introduced it more

561
01:50:32.280 --> 01:50:34.080
a Japanese society.

562
01:50:34.140 --> 01:50:53.409
So now I'm feeling it's very useful to compare this kind of the friendship marriage to the Chinese counterpart. So I'm going to ask her some kind of a joint research on something. Or I was surprised because she told us

563
01:50:53.460 --> 01:51:04.450
the contract marriage in China include their parents. Right? It's not in Japanese cases.

564
01:51:04.640 --> 01:51:09.749
the gay mayor or gay female.

565
01:51:10.080 --> 01:51:11.130
try to hide

566
01:51:11.190 --> 01:51:29.429
course to their family. Of course, their parents. They're the first priority. They keep it secret to their parents. and they keep it to their own. They keep it to themselves, or some exceptional, very, very intimate friend.

567
01:51:29.940 --> 01:51:39.850
So it's the biggest difference. And the second biggest difference would be the kids. My correspondence or Japanese friendship. Marriage market

568
01:51:40.090 --> 01:51:40.940
is

569
01:51:41.170 --> 01:51:44.139
so inclined to the having kids.

570
01:51:44.180 --> 01:51:51.409
So if I want to get married, friendship married. But I don't want a kids. I don't think I can

571
01:51:51.460 --> 01:51:54.289
get anything at the market. So

572
01:51:54.420 --> 01:51:55.480
I,

573
01:51:56.410 --> 01:52:01.749
if you must study by comparing the China and Japan or other European countries. Thank you.

574
01:52:02.720 --> 01:52:21.520
All right. Yeah, we're out of time. But let's really thank our 3 presenters. These have been really illuminating presentations and conversation afterwards. So thank you very much, and thank you to our audience for all your questions.