WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:09.710
It's just about on our starting time, everybody. So welcome to this particular session

2
00:00:10.520 --> 00:00:18.769
we're going to have. We're going to follow the order that's here. With Demetrius and Diane

3
00:00:18.890 --> 00:00:25.030
speaking to us from some at some ungodly air in the United States.

4
00:00:25.220 --> 00:00:28.550
So thank you very much. And then we've got 2

5
00:00:28.740 --> 00:00:41.090
speakers in the room. So Chapman is the named lead author, but some of you know Joe Cutter already from the conference, and Joe Joe will be speaking on behalf of the Leeds team.

6
00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:45.449
and the final presentation in this section is from

7
00:00:46.170 --> 00:00:47.280
Darren.

8
00:00:47.540 --> 00:00:58.829
Snell. So we're going to go. We're going to follow the usual structure of 15 min presentations back to back, and then we'll have Q and I at the end of that.

9
00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:01.410
so

10
00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:08.320
we seem to have lots of participants online. So that's good as well as the 2 speakers.

11
00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:10.270
Now.

12
00:01:10.630 --> 00:01:15.689
the only other problem that I can see that's coming in Hi.

13
00:01:15.870 --> 00:01:22.919
is my technical failings with this system as we move between the 2.

14
00:01:23.220 --> 00:01:24.490
That's right.

15
00:01:24.950 --> 00:01:26.980
All next

16
00:01:27.580 --> 00:01:36.780
sorry for those online. The chair is being heckled by the audience.

17
00:01:37.590 --> 00:01:46.819
But we are about to start with Demetrius, so is the procedure that I stop share is that it?

18
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:55.520
And then we'll go to Demetrius, who will share his screen with us. Yeah. okay, we can see you, Demetrius. Thank you very much.

19
00:01:55.730 --> 00:02:00.890
Let me remind everybody that of course this is recorded. So be careful what you say.

20
00:02:02.700 --> 00:02:03.370
Yeah.

21
00:02:06.440 --> 00:02:11.500
all right. Demetrius, you're still on mute, my friend.

22
00:02:20.260 --> 00:02:24.429
Can I just say that's not my fault.

23
00:02:26.350 --> 00:02:29.940
The matrices you need to unmute plays.

24
00:02:38.870 --> 00:02:41.450
You've been communicating overnight.

25
00:02:43.940 --> 00:02:44.970
Okay?

26
00:02:45.650 --> 00:02:46.870
Dimitris Stevis: The second.

27
00:02:47.330 --> 00:02:48.360
okay.

28
00:02:54.690 --> 00:02:55.839
Dimitris Stevis: But you see me.

29
00:02:56.590 --> 00:03:08.520
we can see you, and we can see a slightly misshapen Powerpoint at the moment. Yeah, but so not sure what's happening at your end with that

30
00:03:14.530 --> 00:03:15.560
shares.

31
00:03:24.220 --> 00:03:27.910
Dimitris Stevis: Somehow, I've gotten out of full screen and I cannot get back into it.

32
00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:37.999
You want to go out of share screen altogether and start again.

33
00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:39.520
Dimitris Stevis: Okay, let's try that.

34
00:03:39.750 --> 00:03:40.550
Yeah.

35
00:03:40.780 --> 00:03:42.100
Dimitris Stevis: okay, there we go.

36
00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:28.539
Dimitris Stevis: That, you see. Now.

37
00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:40.740
that's that's perfect. Thank you very much. Okay. So you couple of J for this, and that's all right. Thank you for joining us. You've got 15 min, and I'll I'll jump up and tell you when it's about 2 or 3. If that's okay.

38
00:04:41.220 --> 00:04:41.950
Okay.

39
00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:43.030
thank you.

40
00:04:44.100 --> 00:04:57.569
Dimitris Stevis: I'm going to present a work in progress or plan to work. because some things have changed since I put in the application for this particular panel. So let me give you some background

41
00:04:57.830 --> 00:05:20.429
Dimitris Stevis: In 2,019, I published a report entitled Us Unions and Green Transitions, Contestations and Explanations. It was a report commissioned by a project called adopting Canadian work and workplaces to climate change. the project is over now, but it wanted to place the Canadian experience in a global context and learn from

42
00:05:20.440 --> 00:05:34.639
Dimitris Stevis: the experiences of other countries to apply to Canada. It was based that that particular report was based on the examination of websites, reports, secondary material, and a number of interviews and site visits

43
00:05:34.830 --> 00:05:47.670
Dimitris Stevis: Erez agmoni It drew on previous work of the Labour network for sustainability, which is a small Us. Labor environmentalist organization which had done a a mapping of labor practices a few years earlier, 150.

44
00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:58.240
Dimitris Stevis: And since I submitted the proposal for this conference, the the labour network or sustainability has become interested in supporting the updating of the 2,019. Report one.

45
00:05:58.630 --> 00:06:05.790
Dimitris Stevis: And so this will be undertaken by myself Mijin, Cha. Vivian Price, and

46
00:06:05.960 --> 00:06:12.560
Dimitris Stevis: with whom I collaborated on Lns's just transition listening project that produce.

47
00:06:13.010 --> 00:06:21.569
Dimitris Stevis: I report a couple of years ago, based on about 100 interviews with workers and community members affected by transitions.

48
00:06:22.110 --> 00:06:33.009
Dimitris Stevis: so that in this time the scope of the project will be broader to also explore the labor practices of environmental environmental justice and other civil society organizations.

49
00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:42.889
Dimitris Stevis: And but why not? Why is it that we need an updating of this report which covers up to the end of 2,018

50
00:06:42.980 --> 00:06:55.489
Dimitris Stevis: as many of you know, during the last 3 years, and and as a result of the Biden Administration's green industrial policies. There have been some important developments that would have not been possible without them.

51
00:06:55.870 --> 00:07:00.929
Dimitris Stevis: I I just read recently, for instance, to my surprise, the United auto Workers

52
00:07:01.080 --> 00:07:14.440
Dimitris Stevis: is withholding its endorsement of Biden until he agrees to a just transition policy for automobile workers affected by his electric electric vehicle policies. It's an interesting development. And I so recently report

53
00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:18.510
Dimitris Stevis: to the Michigan in the Legislature and Governor on the subject.

54
00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:36.260
Dimitris Stevis: Now, the most visible policies of the Biden Administration is something that is called the Inflation Reduction Act for Public Relations purposes. The Bilateral Infrastructure Bill and the Chips Act, which is quite frequently not discussed in conjunction with the previous policies.

55
00:07:36.350 --> 00:07:43.029
Dimitris Stevis: but combined there about 2 trillion dollars of expenditures over the last in the next 7 or years. It's all of money

56
00:07:43.650 --> 00:07:59.730
Dimitris Stevis: existing labor environmentalists, such as the Blue Green Alliance, are excited because they feel that Biden's policies reflect their priorities more than any presidency is 2,006. When the Blue Green Alliance was formed. The Blue Green Alliance is an alliance of

57
00:07:59.850 --> 00:08:07.149
Dimitris Stevis: 5 or 6 environmental organizations, and 5 or 6 unions led by the Sierra Club and the United Still Workers.

58
00:08:07.870 --> 00:08:34.789
Dimitris Stevis: A more recent organization, the Climate jobs, National Resource Center, which brings together unions from the building and construction sectors. Since great opportunities in the bilateral infrastructure, they're expanding around the country. There have been so far limited to the northeast, but now they are thinking about opening a chapter in Colorado. So labor environmentalist, whether by themselves or an alliance with environmentalists, see opportunities

59
00:08:34.870 --> 00:08:44.910
Dimitris Stevis: and then other unions, environmentalists and environmental justice advocates have identified opportunities. There is something in the Biden administration called

60
00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:54.310
Dimitris Stevis: Aj 40, which suggests that 40% of certain kinds of benefits will go to environmental justice, communities and organizations.

61
00:08:55.490 --> 00:09:23.439
Dimitris Stevis: Now, what are some key considerations in this which are of importance to me, at least, European leaders as well as European unions. Labor unions have been concerned about the National Green Industrial focus of Biden's policies. So while China is supposedly the main target of the Us. Policies Europe system as what they are. They are green competitiveness, industrial policies.

62
00:09:23.550 --> 00:09:32.030
Dimitris Stevis: Now, historically, Us. Unions, including the Blue Green Alliance, have not been sensitive to the transnational implications of their policies and narratives.

63
00:09:32.270 --> 00:09:41.690
Dimitris Stevis: does breeding nativist elements in unions, and the working class in parts of the country. 2,016, a significant part of

64
00:09:42.560 --> 00:09:46.249
Dimitris Stevis: workers in what we call the American

65
00:09:46.640 --> 00:10:08.360
Dimitris Stevis: Rust Belt in Ohio and Pennsylvania voted for Trump for Donald trump. That's not a new phenomenon. Really similar amounts of numbers voted for reckoning in 1,980 and substantial number voted for George Wallace, a blatantly racist leader in the early seventies.

66
00:10:08.490 --> 00:10:16.679
Dimitris Stevis: So the question is, our Us. Unions are producing this approach with respect to Biden's policies. This is really,

67
00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:35.850
Dimitris Stevis: a green industrial competitiveness policy. But it is important to understand. And that's a very worrisome for Europeans is that the Biden policies are not only about supporting us companies, but equally importantly. And this is something to underscore about tethering non Us. Companies to the Us.

68
00:10:35.900 --> 00:10:50.610
Dimitris Stevis: A number of Us. States, particularly in the Us. South, but increasingly around the country, are very aggressively trying to attract foreign corporations quite frequently promising them non Union status.

69
00:10:52.590 --> 00:10:58.389
Dimitris Stevis: So what are the research questions? First question is, what are the environmental strategies of us? Unions?

70
00:10:58.510 --> 00:11:10.290
Dimitris Stevis: Have there been significant changes since 2,018, when the last report was handed. have some unions or related organizations that, had such priorities become more or less active.

71
00:11:10.610 --> 00:11:24.370
Dimitris Stevis: have unions that were on the fence moved to the direction of what, away from environmental commitments have the unions that did not have or were opposed to environmental policy shift that perhaps in response to the policy I mentioned.

72
00:11:24.570 --> 00:11:31.150
Dimitris Stevis: And we're going to ask similar questions with respect to the views of environmentalists and environmental justice advocates.

73
00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:41.040
Dimitris Stevis: Another important question is, are these changes conjunctural ways to get access to the funds provided in Biden's policies? Or are they evidence of a political shift?

74
00:11:41.320 --> 00:12:01.749
Dimitris Stevis: Are the pattern sectoral or a long production that works quite frequently. When we deal with labor unions and green transitions, we examine them at a sectoral level. I personally think that's not empirical, justified, we should be better served to study them in terms of production. That we'll we can discuss that if anybody would like the Q. A.

75
00:12:02.210 --> 00:12:08.859
Dimitris Stevis: The assumption here is that climate strategy is not necessarily internationalist nor environmentally benign.

76
00:12:09.100 --> 00:12:19.809
Dimitris Stevis: Accordingly, it is possible for a union to be supportive of strong climate policies all be particularistic ones. For this reason I propose, or will propose, the following analytical scheme.

77
00:12:20.750 --> 00:12:31.509
Dimitris Stevis: good to examine the breadth of the views of the various unions. are they limited geographically and jurisdictionally? Does the producing compet competitiveness?

78
00:12:32.020 --> 00:12:39.169
Dimitris Stevis: Do they pay any attention to the supply chains within which the Us unions operate?

79
00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:50.490
Dimitris Stevis: What is the social and ecological scope to the address? All constituencies affected? some of the just transition initiatives in the Us. And elsewhere.

80
00:12:50.540 --> 00:13:03.679
Dimitris Stevis: address only some workers, often white males. do they focus on your climate? Or is climate part of the broader eco-social agenda, whether it's water or the other toxins

81
00:13:03.890 --> 00:13:12.579
Dimitris Stevis: in terms of depth. What are the social priorities of unions is socially quality central? Where are they seeking a larger piece of the pie which is characteristic of us.

82
00:13:12.620 --> 00:13:22.710
Dimitris Stevis: Business liberal unions in the Us. And that's what I would say. And what are the ecological priorities of unions? Are there priorities driven by ecological values, or are they.

83
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:27.880
Dimitris Stevis: Are those ecological claims purely instrumental

84
00:13:29.070 --> 00:13:34.599
Dimitris Stevis: on that basis? We're going to discuss the ambition of this particular policies or views of unions

85
00:13:34.730 --> 00:13:40.139
Dimitris Stevis: kind of bring them together. we're going to focus on how much

86
00:13:40.290 --> 00:13:43.179
Dimitris Stevis: they thought our Nationalist or internationalist

87
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:52.720
Dimitris Stevis: and whether they range from what they call neoliberal strategies to mortgalitarian, eco-social ones, mostly unions

88
00:13:53.270 --> 00:13:57.840
Dimitris Stevis: their environmental and social policies range between neoliberal and

89
00:13:58.670 --> 00:14:08.279
Dimitris Stevis: certainly building construction unions to green industrial policies where ecological innovation is a collateral benefit.

90
00:14:08.670 --> 00:14:13.339
Dimitris Stevis: But there are some very interesting exceptions, and we like to explore those.

91
00:14:14.670 --> 00:14:24.550
Dimitris Stevis: and we are going to close the discussion, which I did also in that report of what explains the preference of your unions. We're going to look at internal factors

92
00:14:25.180 --> 00:14:41.710
Dimitris Stevis: paying attention to the sector or production network approach. And of course, ideology. external factors. Certainly the Biden administration policies are very instrumental here, but so our corporate policies and relations with environmentalists and environmental justice advocates.

93
00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:55.640
Dimitris Stevis: We're going to be close attention to industrial relations, as I did in the original report. I think that it is very difficult to avoid industrial relations. They are more structural than institutional even, or instrumental.

94
00:14:56.370 --> 00:15:12.629
Dimitris Stevis: The underlying assumption, at least as far as I understand it, is that the politics of Us. Unions predispose them towards liberal or green industrial policies rather than more egalitarian, ecosocial policies. They have been instances of democratic democratic or social democratic unions in the Us.

95
00:15:12.770 --> 00:15:25.660
Dimitris Stevis: but in my view, those in our days are a bit more limited than they were in the past. But there are some exceptions, there are some positive in my view, instances, and we like to explore those.

96
00:15:25.820 --> 00:15:36.270
Dimitris Stevis: And in general we're going to combine historical and structural explanations with conjunctional ones, particularly the impact is from the Biden administration policies.

97
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.480
Dimitris Stevis: And we, this I'm closing and thank you so much.

98
00:15:46.150 --> 00:16:01.060
Thank you to mattress for actually coming in a bit under time, having raised so many really interesting issues that we'll return to in the Q. And a. I'm sure I've got a list of things myself. So thanks again.

99
00:16:01.270 --> 00:16:06.649
Thank you. Now, Joe Cutter is going to present on behalf of the

100
00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.899
Leeds team.

101
00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:13.879
keeping that international flavor of this section going

102
00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:22.730
now, does anybody know what I should be doing here?

103
00:16:27.030 --> 00:16:29.790
 Larissa.

104
00:16:32.710 --> 00:16:35.239
it is when you're in the.

105
00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:39.700
you know.

106
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:46.140
Okay, give me a give me a way of if I'm getting close to time.

107
00:16:50.180 --> 00:17:00.859
Okay, good morning, everyone. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm not very Chapman. I'm Joan Cutter. Part of a team based at the University of Leeds.

108
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:27.109
Today, I'm going to present a slice of data from a a much larger survey of workers about their perspectives on climate change and the green transition. it's part of a an ongoing and larger program of work, including more qualitative work with workers unions. And it's actually a 12 country study, including the Us. And Median Cha. And Laura Skinner for Cornell are taking part in the the Us. Country case.

109
00:17:27.310 --> 00:17:49.940
So I guess I'm saying, there's much more interesting data to come from that kind of broader comparative analysis across countries where we will be focusing on on just on the sort of just transition policies the extent to which the labour voice is in climate politics, but also the sort of just transition practices kind of on the ground and the support for workers.

110
00:17:49.940 --> 00:18:06.670
clearly, as industrial relations, scholars, we are particularly interested on how labour movements are mobilising on climate issues, and particularly how they represent the interests of labour, as I say, within that kind of politics, but also in terms of what happens for workers.

111
00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:26.200
there's been much talk of a just transition to support workers potentially made vulnerable. by the changes in kind of restructuring. And that's sort of implied by a hopeful kind of decarbonisation of our economies. The Uk's Climate Commission reported to Parliament on

112
00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:38.259
Tuesday, and to be honest with the prospects that a sense that what transition is a good question. But let's take it some faith that there may be one. And we are thinking about the role of unions within those processes.

113
00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:55.040
So, as I mentioned, I'm going to focus on some initial observations from a survey of workers in 2 of those countries in Germany and the Uk, on just focusing on their perspectives, on climate change more generally. but more importantly, on the issues of climate change and decarbonisation at work

114
00:18:57.970 --> 00:18:59.209
going to move down.

115
00:19:01.050 --> 00:19:02.060
Yeah, here we go.

116
00:19:03.210 --> 00:19:18.489
So as some Demetrius has highlighted, you know. Clearly there has been really interesting work looking at the kind of different kind of policy orientations of trade unions. We are not suggesting that this is a new area. Unions have

117
00:19:18.670 --> 00:19:25.739
being and would claim to have been environmental actors for a long time, but looking more recently in the kind of the context of climate politics.

118
00:19:25.750 --> 00:19:44.679
an assessment essentially of their support, for that is mixed, as has also been noted, sometimes shaped by Union identities, often drawing on Hyman's assessment of Union Orientations to market class or society.

119
00:19:44.790 --> 00:20:02.840
but others. when looking specifically in terms of an industrial relations perspective on institutions might also highlight the kind of the extent to sectional interests prevail over perhaps either broader class interests or indeed broader societal interests.

120
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:13.960
So if we were interested to think about the scope for unions as a kind of potentially a political force in this newer era of of green politics and ably outlined by Demetrius.

121
00:20:14.060 --> 00:20:34.320
I just wanted to pay attention in our presentation on this question of Union democracy, Adrian Thomas, and Nadia Doolinger, when looking at strategies of kind of unions and their kind of observation of their capacity to both, sometimes oppose, sometimes hedge their bets, and sometimes to be more supportive of climate policy.

122
00:20:34.540 --> 00:20:56.860
suggest that there needs to be closer attention paid to the these kind of processes within unions. both in terms of the kind of democratic voice that may come from, if you like, from the from the rank and file from the bottom up from workers more generally, and indeed, how these conflicting interests are intermediated and articulated across different levels and scales.

123
00:20:57.260 --> 00:21:15.570
and very much like the listening project we felt it was important to develop an understanding of what workers think. There's been quite a lot of analysis of union policy and talk with union elites around these questions. But we feel we need to expand the question about how workers see these processes on the ground.

124
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:36.600
and what we might infer, or what we might see in relation to the way you know, are the workers in those so-called higher emitting sectors? you know other observations, similar or different to other groups of workers, and as industrial relations, scholars, what about the importance of different institutional forms? They seem to matter.

125
00:21:37.010 --> 00:21:52.380
So in terms of our data, we have been focusing, as I say, on the Germany in the Uk. And we have thinking about the analysis essentially, that I'm going to show today just talks about the kind of comparison between those 2 workers in those 2 settings

126
00:21:52.420 --> 00:22:05.939
and kind of contrasting workers in these different structural positions, so defining the higher carbon sectors as being those energy energy production, but also the energy intensive manufacturing sectors

127
00:22:07.870 --> 00:22:20.299
so very quickly in terms of our survey. This has been a survey of 4,000 workers, 2,000 in each jurisdiction, with representation focusing on on workers, employees in employment or self-employed.

128
00:22:20.450 --> 00:22:40.549
and I was going to present some data on perspectives on climate change more generally, but in the interest of time here is a summary in terms of attitudes, and there are such regular surveys in both countries of the general population, of expressions of concern for climate change is an issue.

129
00:22:40.550 --> 00:22:59.159
The extent to which it should be acted on with urgency. And so, and repeating those questions with Uk and German workers, their responses are very similar to the general population surveys, and they are also similar to each other. There is no evidence across slightly different dimensions of those questions that Uk or German workers are more or less concerned

130
00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:01.220
about the climate, but

131
00:23:01.390 --> 00:23:08.039
perhaps coming on to the more interesting industrial relations, questions that in terms of.

132
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:09.630
if

133
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:28.070
in a context, and I hope you'll bear with me in this sort of gross simplification of a context of different employment relations, systems where German workers are in a context of stronger institutional voice, both in terms of sexual and structures, both in terms of what the existence of work clout councils.

134
00:23:28.070 --> 00:23:50.510
the potential for workers on boards, and also the kind of the way in which there are a role for unions in skills and training systems. We may expect that that German workers would be more knowledgeable about kind of workplace plans or organisational plans, and indeed, maybe sectoral initiatives

135
00:23:50.620 --> 00:24:14.280
have a sense of greater influence on those initiatives, and as we know that in terms of this notion of transition that the greening of work, and again, a lot to discuss what we mean by green jobs and skills. But if we take it again hang with me this basic premise of the need for the greening of skills in some capacity that at least access to relevant skills training is important.

136
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:32.799
So just in terms of coming on to the question of knowledge of kind of climate, and being informed, and the way it was framed, as the extent to which workers feel informed. We we were looking across these different domains, the extent to which workers were informed about the causes of climate change.

137
00:24:33.090 --> 00:24:42.080
bottom items there, the consequences of climate change and the solutions to tackle them and then moving into the domain of work.

138
00:24:42.330 --> 00:24:49.579
Our work is aware of what needs to happen in the industry sector. And indeed, what needs to happen in their workplace? So, running through?

139
00:24:49.770 --> 00:25:07.790
The first 2, we find that German workers are the circles a very sophisticated presentation technique to show statistical significance of the difference between these 2 groups. in relation to causes of of climate change.

140
00:25:07.950 --> 00:25:33.030
Again on first inspection. It seems that levels of education are important here, that again, in terms of general populations, sort of awareness and engagement, indeed, in climate action are correlated to levels of education, general levels of education which we see as a potential factor explaining this. But interestingly, when we ask about the knowledge of the solutions to tackle climate change.

141
00:25:33.030 --> 00:25:51.820
no significant difference, and even more surprisingly, we have checked and double checked this with my German colleagues, that Uk workers are more likely to cite significantly, statistically, to say that they understand what needs to happen in their industry sector to reduce carbon emissions and what needs to happen in their workplace to reduce carbon emissions

142
00:25:53.740 --> 00:26:17.200
when we break this down by sector categories and apologies. I'm not going to show the kind of detailed slide of the data, but in terms of what we do see is that German workers in higher carbon, emitting sectors are much more likely than their counterparts in a higher covered, emitting sectors in the Uk to to understand industry and workplace the sort of implications for change.

143
00:26:17.210 --> 00:26:45.669
but that in the Uk workers in those other sectors, the non higher carbon emitting sectors are even more likely than their Uk counterparts. And so we see that this this sort of difference when we're looking at the the kind of economic position of work is is having some kind of effect here in terms of being informed. But okay, so having general levels of awareness and information about these things are interesting. But what's actually happening in terms of dialogue around carbon dioxide at work.

144
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:59.849
So we have a couple of sets of questions around the extent to which workers feel that they are consulted, and the next slide is around informed about decarbonisation plans.

145
00:27:00.990 --> 00:27:22.479
So again, I think also, I've come to the the the Red Circle in a moment. One of the kind of most important observation here is that over 60. Almost 70% of workers are either have not been consulted or don't know if they've been consulted, and as I would have mentioned in previous presentations, or

146
00:27:22.650 --> 00:27:38.750
that if you don't know that you've been consulted, it's high likely that you have not been consulted, so that we have this sort of more general picture of actually a lack of engagement. There are other questions in this survey which talk about the extent to which decarbonisation plans exist.

147
00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:43.690
Now, clearly we? Then we don't know, in a sense, if that's

148
00:27:43.780 --> 00:27:49.499
the the extent to which they really do exist, or workers are not engaged in dialogue around them.

149
00:27:49.710 --> 00:28:04.770
But there is broader assessments of around a quarter of firms across kind of both countries would have clear, well defined, articulated decarbonisation plans. So in a sense that might be a kind of fit here.

150
00:28:05.020 --> 00:28:34.370
But again, coming on to where there has been consultation about those plans again, we find that Uk workers are significantly more likely to say that they've been consulted about them. And then a similar but slightly different question of whether they feel they've had influence on those plans to decarbonise. Similarly, Uk workers report that this is the case, and again we see this split. When we look at kind of the then the split between higher carbon and low carbon

151
00:28:34.370 --> 00:28:39.120
workers in those different areas of the economy that we have

152
00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:58.520
higher. What German workers in those higher emitting sectors are significantly more likely to be consulted. But other workers in the German economy, much much less likely to have been engaged in dialogue on those plans and issues. And then, finally, just in terms of training. Again, as we might expect, a similar

153
00:28:58.520 --> 00:29:17.260
proportion across the board have received relevant training that connected to those plans for decarbonisation. But workers in the higher carbon sectors in Germany are significantly more likely to have had training relevant to decarbonisation. Although again, with this proviso that the vast majority have had no relevant to training.

154
00:29:17.450 --> 00:29:24.610
So just to sum up, we have a picture where

155
00:29:26.930 --> 00:29:33.549
not really We were not seeing that German workers

156
00:29:33.890 --> 00:30:03.879
Although they have this more general knowledge about climate change, they're not necessarily more informed about sector level or workplace plans. it's only those sex with German workers in the higher emitting sectors that feel that they have a stronger voice in those initiatives. But of but as we might expect much stronger access to in in both areas, in terms of relevant skills, training so quickly. Just to sum up in terms of kind of thinking about these questions of representation.

157
00:30:04.550 --> 00:30:29.550
I suppose a a an observation. And again, sort of partly link to other work that we're doing when we see that there are, forms of representation of German worker interest in sort of sector dialogues and also kind of political dialogue, that it's interesting that workers on the ground don't necessarily reflect that they have been consulted and represented. So maybe there's an observation that yes, there's representation, a kind of a technical

158
00:30:29.550 --> 00:30:37.329
or Union executive or policy level around these issues. But it doesn't give German workers on the ground the sense that their interests are being represented.

159
00:30:37.450 --> 00:31:04.399
and in terms of thinking about. If, like union kind of capacities in this area, this potentially, this lack of up and down articulation of work or interests and concerns is perhaps notable, and perhaps might also have implications for kind of work. support the ground for union, union, climate, politics, although clearly there is a question more broadly whether workers feel that their interest in this space are represented through other other structures.

160
00:31:04.610 --> 00:31:05.800
and

161
00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:33.530
in terms of thinking about this kind of contrast of workers in different structural positions. The fact that in Germany, clearly, there are these stronger in industrial relations, institutions at a sexual level, potentially silos. The issue of climate change and decarbonisation as a sort of set of dialogues between as as much more privileging those in that kind of higher carbon emitting sectors. And whilst.

162
00:31:33.610 --> 00:32:01.319
as I'll comment to my final point, that's that, clearly these that that's an important issue, potentially those implications for the intermediation of sexual interest across the labour movement. Given the sort of strong sexual dimension of union union structure union structures. in terms of their full kind of extending the interest of workers across the broader economy, perhaps, is something to note. And in the Uk context, well, certainly,

163
00:32:01.320 --> 00:32:23.270
given that it is the higher carbon sectors that need to decarbonise rapidly. Perhaps there is a real concern here that in the Uk the worker voice isn't as actively engaged and clearly without the same access to relevant green skills training as sort of a reflection that potentially this is reflective of not just the

164
00:32:23.270 --> 00:32:31.470
general weakness of institutions in the Uk of industrial relations institutions, but a particular weakness of the private sector

165
00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:32.120
or

166
00:32:32.120 --> 00:32:44.540
unions, organising and kind of industrial unions in the private sector. with very much an enterprise focus, whereas in the public sector unions tending to have more kind of transformational politics,

167
00:32:44.540 --> 00:33:07.149
at the, you know, there's kind of this interesting debate of of this in at the moment. Much of the debate within the movement is between this, as again, as Demetrius highlighted this sort of scale of market oriented versus transformational politics. And that's really where the kind of the nature of the debate is rather than a much stronger focus on what it is that workers actually need on the ground, and

168
00:33:07.149 --> 00:33:15.450
it will surprise nobody that we are pointing out the general weakness of the Uk skills system. So I will leave it there. Thank you very much.

169
00:33:21.300 --> 00:33:22.170
A.

170
00:33:24.580 --> 00:33:27.009
Thank you, Joe. Okay, now

171
00:33:28.050 --> 00:33:30.640
we are going back to.

172
00:33:38.510 --> 00:33:39.590
I hope.

173
00:33:41.520 --> 00:33:44.170
Diane Sicotte: Just let me know when I should start sharing.

174
00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:52.679
Yup. Okay, thank you, Diane. So we're ready when you are. So my answer is joining us from

175
00:33:53.189 --> 00:33:56.279
Diane Sicotte: Philadelphia, is that right? Yes, that's right.

176
00:33:56.359 --> 00:34:09.389
Okay, so we've had Colorado here in the room sort of Via leads. Now we're elsewhere in the United States. Thank you for joining us at this hour and over to you, and if necessary, I'll jump up and tell you when you've got a couple of minutes left.

177
00:34:09.640 --> 00:34:12.080
But your 15 starts now.

178
00:34:12.410 --> 00:34:27.010
Diane Sicotte: Okay, thank you. I'm Diane Cott and Today, I'm going to talk about work from an unpublished book project focusing on Us. Labor unions in the low carbon energy transition.

179
00:34:29.260 --> 00:34:30.650
Diane Sicotte: Let's see.

180
00:34:30.980 --> 00:34:32.970
Diane Sicotte: here we go. Okay.

181
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:44.550
Diane Sicotte: So just to tell you a little bit about the project, it was funded by National Science Foundation and It was a 3 year study

182
00:34:44.770 --> 00:35:02.260
Diane Sicotte: and we studied 11 Us. Based national level labor unions. Then our unions were chosen, either because they took a public position on energy issues, or because they represented energy workers meaning, we're

183
00:35:02.270 --> 00:35:06.979
Diane Sicotte: people who worked directly with energy.

184
00:35:07.660 --> 00:35:23.109
Diane Sicotte:  this is a qualitative project. And my methods that I'm going to talk about today included discourse, analysis of Union websites, and these are posts from 2,012 to 2,020.

185
00:35:23.190 --> 00:35:28.189
Diane Sicotte: We also conducted in-depth interviews. But I'm not going to talk about those data tonight.

186
00:35:31.290 --> 00:35:46.580
Diane Sicotte: So the 11 labor unions in our study included the communication workers of America, the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, the International Union of Operating Engineers.

187
00:35:46.580 --> 00:36:03.889
Diane Sicotte: the Laborers International Union of North America Transport Workers Union United Association, United Auto Workers, United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers of America, United Steel Workers and the utility workers of America.

188
00:36:04.060 --> 00:36:07.369
Diane Sicotte: So out of these unions, only 2.

189
00:36:07.390 --> 00:36:18.380
Diane Sicotte: we're energy. We're not energy workers unions, meaning that they did not traditionally represent energy workers. The other 9 do

190
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:38.879
Diane Sicotte: so in this presentation, I'm going to focus on one of our research questions. And that is what influences major Us. Labor union strategies to shape decarbonization and just transition proposals from 2,012 to 2,020.

191
00:36:40.750 --> 00:36:47.810
Diane Sicotte: so  okay, so

192
00:36:48.010 --> 00:36:52.410
Diane Sicotte: the discourse that I'm focusing on is

193
00:36:53.040 --> 00:37:01.380
Diane Sicotte: solely based on statements from union officials. So this is sort of like the official union story.

194
00:37:01.410 --> 00:37:16.249
Diane Sicotte:  unions also posted discourse from news sources and other commentary by specific members. But I did not focus on that for the analysis.

195
00:37:18.500 --> 00:37:40.620
Diane Sicotte: Okay, so, I used to theoretical lenses in this project to examine these data. The first is treadmill of production theory from environmental sociology which holds that Western capitalism runs like a treadmill needing more and more growth, which accelerates environmental destruction

196
00:37:40.740 --> 00:37:58.929
Diane Sicotte: and labor unions, like their employers, are seen as being stuck on this treadmill, and therefore pushed in the direction of aligning with corporations to advocate for more production. So unions are viewed as occupying a middle position between corporations and the state.

197
00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:09.099
Diane Sicotte: The other theoretical lens we used is a relational approach to just transition from labor studies which asks

198
00:38:09.170 --> 00:38:20.220
Diane Sicotte: how unequal structural power relations, shape organization strategies and understands Union's actions in historical context.

199
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:30.340
Diane Sicotte: So findings of prior researchers, Tobias cults, findings were particular.

200
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.490
Diane Sicotte: particularly important here.

201
00:38:32.700 --> 00:38:51.839
Diane Sicotte: He found that there were some important factors influencing labor union strategies which included sectoral interests, organizational identities, internal structures, coalitions, political economic context, governance and public discourse.

202
00:38:53.930 --> 00:39:06.179
Diane Sicotte: and then this. These findings are probably familiar to anyone who is very familiar with Demetrius work. the 4

203
00:39:06.260 --> 00:39:11.389
Diane Sicotte: sort of typologies labor anti environmentalism

204
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:19.229
Diane Sicotte: which prioritizes fossil fuel development and resists decarbonization wants business as usual.

205
00:39:19.240 --> 00:39:23.950
Diane Sicotte: green growth which prioritizes business-led development.

206
00:39:24.090 --> 00:39:29.590
Diane Sicotte: particularly the development of renewable energy energy industries

207
00:39:29.640 --> 00:39:32.600
Diane Sicotte: reactive labor environmentalism.

208
00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:51.959
Diane Sicotte: which sort of is a hedging strategy acknowledges the need to decarbonize, but seeks to slow down decarbonization. And then, lastly, proactive labor environmentalism which supports decarbonization and opposes further fossil fuel development.

209
00:39:55.030 --> 00:40:13.679
Diane Sicotte: Okay? So now, I'm going to discuss the influences on union strategies that I've identified from our data. the first factor that influences union strategies to shape decarbonization and just transition proposals is their material interests.

210
00:40:14.080 --> 00:40:24.330
Diane Sicotte: And not surprisingly, I found these to be tightly coupled with production networks associated with different energy technologies.

211
00:40:24.670 --> 00:40:34.940
Diane Sicotte: and we can discern union strategies by examining their position on new regulations or high-profile energy projects.

212
00:40:38.580 --> 00:40:49.140
Diane Sicotte: So as you look over this slide. it's instructive to contrast the United Steel Workers position on the Clean Power plan

213
00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:52.690
Diane Sicotte: and the Enbridge 5 pipeline project.

214
00:40:53.540 --> 00:41:10.299
Diane Sicotte: the Obama Administration's clean power plan, which was finalized in 2,015, represented a shift in U. S. Environmental policy toward regulating greenhouse gas emissions as air pollutants and phasing out the use of coal to generate electricity.

215
00:41:10.730 --> 00:41:21.439
Diane Sicotte: and I should just mention here that Usw. Has a history of pro- environmental activism and traditionally represent many oil and refinery workers.

216
00:41:21.510 --> 00:41:32.029
Diane Sicotte: but their position on the Clean power plan resembled that of some other unions that don't represent energy workers. In other words. It was pro

217
00:41:32.070 --> 00:41:40.970
Diane Sicotte: clean power plan and in favor of restrictions on co burning power plants.

218
00:41:42.530 --> 00:41:57.889
Diane Sicotte: for example, in 2,013 Usw. International President was co-chair of the Blue Green Alliance, and both organizations sponsored the good jobs. Green Jobs Conference and a climate change bus tour

219
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:00.560
Diane Sicotte: aimed at promoting the clean power plan.

220
00:42:01.110 --> 00:42:17.109
Diane Sicotte: and in a speech a Usw. Official, Fred Redmond said, debate about whether climate change exists has gone on for far too long we, as steel workers, have every intention of making sure that the President's plan goes forward.

221
00:42:18.070 --> 00:42:23.459
Diane Sicotte: So this was looking like more like proactive labor environmentalism.

222
00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:26.400
Diane Sicotte: But then.

223
00:42:26.550 --> 00:42:36.540
Diane Sicotte: if you look at the Usw's position on the Enbridge line 5, this huge pipeline that was going across the Great Lakes.

224
00:42:36.550 --> 00:42:48.509
Diane Sicotte:  and it's a 20 inch crude oil pipeline that poses a a risk to the ecosystems of the Great Lakes, in which the Governor of Michigan wanted to shut down

225
00:42:48.520 --> 00:42:51.670
Diane Sicotte: Usw. Strategy looked very different.

226
00:42:52.320 --> 00:43:06.300
Diane Sicotte: And, in fact, Usw. President sent a letter to Governor Gretchen W. Whitmer, reading. We urge you to reverse your decision to terminate the easement for enriched line 5.

227
00:43:06.700 --> 00:43:10.850
Diane Sicotte: To avoid avert economic damage in the region.

228
00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:22.920
Diane Sicotte: So on the issue surrounding line 5 Usw. Supported pipeline development. A position in line with their material interests in the oil and gas production network.

229
00:43:26.670 --> 00:43:41.810
Diane Sicotte: So another important influence shaping labor Union strategies is the degree to which the Government allows them a seat at the table for decisions about how workers displaced by a fossil fuel phase out will be supported.

230
00:43:44.690 --> 00:43:56.870
Diane Sicotte: This quote displays the oppositional stance to the clean power plan displayed by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, a union dependent on the coal production network.

231
00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:01.299
Diane Sicotte: and this quote from Ib. Ew.

232
00:44:01.680 --> 00:44:09.640
Diane Sicotte: says that the EPA is creating energy policy, and they have neither the expertise nor the legal authority to do it.

233
00:44:09.820 --> 00:44:13.399
Diane Sicotte: We worked with the EPA for years

234
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:22.960
Diane Sicotte: to address greenhouse gas emissions with a plan that is effective and legal. Unfortunately, we don't believe the clean power plan is either.

235
00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:32.869
Diane Sicotte: And the Ep. The ib. Ew. Actually sued the Environmental Protection Agency to stop the clean power plan.

236
00:44:35.720 --> 00:44:47.349
Diane Sicotte: But in contrast to their oppositional stance resisting the phase out of coal in the Us. Ib. Ew. Took an active role in steering the transition away from coal in Canada.

237
00:44:47.510 --> 00:45:06.160
Diane Sicotte: In 2,018 Ibw. Is asked to join a task force assembled by the Trudeau Administration to assist co-workers with Canada's transition away from coal fired power plants which could affect up to 2,000 Ibw. Members. So in this case

238
00:45:06.180 --> 00:45:16.870
Diane Sicotte: the Ibw official was saying that they were going to make sure every option was explored, including the potential for switching fuel sources.

239
00:45:21.410 --> 00:45:29.969
Diane Sicotte: Another important influence. Shaping labor union strategies is this alignment and coalition with organizations.

240
00:45:30.240 --> 00:45:42.789
Diane Sicotte: While much has been written about the Blue Green organizations uniting labor with environmentalists, much less is known about the black blue organizations that connect labor with fossil fuel interests.

241
00:45:43.040 --> 00:45:57.139
Diane Sicotte: Many organizations aligned with oil interests are busy promoting carbon capture technologies and have won subsidies for carbon capture development through the Biden Administration's Inflation Reduction Act.

242
00:46:00.060 --> 00:46:07.579
Diane Sicotte: and a quote illustrates the importance of organizations promoting carbon capture to the boiler-makers.

243
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:16.319
Diane Sicotte: We have worked hard to cultivate mutually beneficial relationships with organizations like the Global Ccs Institute

244
00:46:16.420 --> 00:46:29.170
Diane Sicotte: and the International Ccs Knowledge Center. Through these relationships and others, the boiler makers have been invited to speak on behalf of labor around the world about CC. Us.

245
00:46:32.620 --> 00:46:44.350
Diane Sicotte: So what can we take away from this little slice of data. Well, there's a lot more to say about this. But for now I'd like to leave you with 3 takeaway points.

246
00:46:44.800 --> 00:47:00.590
Diane Sicotte: for us, labor unions representing energy workers. Strategies to address decarbonization are more nuanced than just support hedging or opposition. Instead, they align with production networks.

247
00:47:01.690 --> 00:47:11.640
Diane Sicotte:  production networks exert such a strong influence that their influence can even override a union's environmentalist identity.

248
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:22.590
Diane Sicotte: Second, unions positions on decarbonization are also shaped by government policies. More supportive policies are likely to soften their

249
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:26.280
Diane Sicotte: opposition against decarbonization policy.

250
00:47:26.610 --> 00:47:36.800
Diane Sicotte: and finally, unions positions are shaped by their alliances with environmental interests or business interests, promoting energy technologies.

251
00:47:36.900 --> 00:47:43.040
Diane Sicotte: And this is not just true for unions whose strategy runs to green growth

252
00:47:43.080 --> 00:47:53.420
Diane Sicotte: and the development of renewable energy industries. But for all union strategies. Okay, so that's all I have to say. Thank you for your time.

253
00:47:58.250 --> 00:48:12.670
Thank you. Thanks very much, Diane. I'm sure everybody agrees. Really interesting in itself, and also really interesting overlaps between the presentations so far. So yeah, thank you very much. Now, Aaron, we are coming back to

254
00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:14.120
Australia.

255
00:48:24.380 --> 00:48:25.790
and master of this

256
00:48:30.220 --> 00:48:33.160
slow learning is better than no learning

257
00:48:38.630 --> 00:48:52.469
I was touching presenting on behalf of somebody you many of you know very well our only great pleasure for the final paper to be delivered by Darren, Darren, thank you.

258
00:48:52.790 --> 00:49:06.200
I don't know. I don't know if I would. Would. Would want me presenting on his behalf. But anyway, I'll take it.

259
00:49:06.210 --> 00:49:16.629
look One thing I will say this session is fantastic in terms of the way it all is holding together, and

260
00:49:16.850 --> 00:49:26.339
the themes and the issues being explored, and so on. and there is going to be some overlap. And I'm going to quickly jump over some of that stuff because it's already been covered.

261
00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:44.530
we've called this reclaiming just transition, but, as you'll see when I get to the end, I'm not sure that I'm even interested in reclaiming just transition. and Allen, I have a bit of debate about that with other colleagues, including Sally well, or who's also in it to this space?

262
00:49:44.640 --> 00:49:47.309
okay, where we

263
00:49:49.660 --> 00:49:51.230
that one?

264
00:49:51.530 --> 00:49:52.210
Yeah.

265
00:49:59.130 --> 00:50:03.170
there we go. Okay,

266
00:50:03.470 --> 00:50:20.650
really, what's motivating? This is what's happened to unions. And the just transition debate, or what's happened to just transition. More generally. I've you know, been involved in this just transition stuff at a range of levels both as a researcher, but also as a

267
00:50:20.970 --> 00:50:31.629
union activists in in a coal region for many years. So it's really getting us to understand, what is that relationship between

268
00:50:32.170 --> 00:50:59.480
union's relationship to this concept. How it's changed over time. I often get from unions as soon as they get approached by a researcher that is wanting to do yet another just transition study that contact me. Can you deal with this shit? And it's almost as if it's my fault that the just transition thing is morphed into something else than than they really are familiar with.

269
00:50:59.560 --> 00:51:26.230
So, anyway, what I want to do just fairly quickly is this first part of. You know what's happened to the in terms of our scholarship, the scholarship around just transition. And there's been an explosion So this is just a quick exercise and and sort of scope. This analysis of just transition research. It's it's taken off, you know, there's 688 articles, most of which happens since 2,015

270
00:51:26.470 --> 00:51:39.170
and if you sort of break it down in terms of the social sciences and environmental sciences and energy, and so on. You see the spaces in which those are are being published.

271
00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:57.099
which is sort of an interesting exercise. There's been many others that have done the sort of What what do you call it? The systematic review of the literature? So I'm not going to go into that space. And I wasn't particularly keen to do that.

272
00:51:57.420 --> 00:52:08.460
But if you sort of look at the journals that are dominating its environmental studies, it's environmental politics and increasingly, environment. energy studies are energy policy.

273
00:52:09.600 --> 00:52:15.570
Less than 3% of the publications are in Ir, labor studies or or sociology journals.

274
00:52:15.890 --> 00:52:31.810
Something, I mean, this is sort of interesting. Why, why is it? What's happened to us as scholars, researchers being interested in this space? Why have we not really had the interest particularly given? What we know of the the roots of just transition.

275
00:52:33.010 --> 00:52:47.050
So it's really, then, you know, if we think about broadly looking at that literature, and Demetrius and I have done this, and certainly Demetrius has done much more in this space than I have in trying to make sense of that literature.

276
00:52:47.080 --> 00:53:00.579
But you get, you know it's a a range of things, a principle, a process, a practice, a movement. Increasingly. It's about policy. Others talk about it as a framework

277
00:53:01.090 --> 00:53:31.559
 and you're increasingly the justice and the struggle is completely absent from all of this. What we're talking about is almost at our when it comes to regional development. It's usually about diversification. It's not about justice as such, or it's about moving from one energy technology to a different energy technology, whether carbon capture storage is part of the green or the dirty becomes part of the discussion on that as well.

278
00:53:31.650 --> 00:53:44.530
But what becomes missing is this question about where is the justice? Where is the struggle. and where are industrial relations, scholars, and sociology of work?

279
00:53:45.910 --> 00:53:53.780
And so Al and I sort of, you know, go back to the work of foster and Clar, getting us to think about

280
00:53:53.890 --> 00:54:15.099
the nature of production. in thinking about the struggle about those conditions, though co-evolution of nature and human production as a way to start, you know, getting us back to what we originally were really concerned about when it came to the just transition debate

281
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:19.960
the relationship between human production and nature.

282
00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:34.049
And you get the, you know, these issues around reactive and proactive. And Diane did a fantastic job of you know already covering that. But you get these sort of strange dichotomies.

283
00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:41.759
and I think it's more complicated than just reactive or proactive. Struggle is always

284
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:55.390
dealing with those in in all sorts of contexts, particularly when it comes to trade unions. And there's always trade-offs that one has to to deal with. Given the relationship that you are with capital

285
00:54:56.940 --> 00:55:03.819
 Demetrius and I, in a previous piece, were working around. You know.

286
00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:07.989
how do you think about transition transition from what to what

287
00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:21.139
are we talking about? Some sort of reformist transition? Are we talking about something transformational? You know, we're talking about some sort of ecological modernization versus green Keynesianism.

288
00:55:21.190 --> 00:55:38.579
or something even more transformational in terms of ecological socialism, and so on. And you could sort of look at, you know, where unions position themselves politically and so on on that, and that's sort of been done. But once again it tends to focus on policy

289
00:55:38.770 --> 00:55:43.220
rather than the struggle itself, and I guess for me.

290
00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:52.890
I think it's time to sort of now for us, as I are scholars or people in that space, to think about moving back to issues of struggle and power, and so on.

291
00:55:53.970 --> 00:56:09.000
So if we look about that aspect, the environmental aspects that you can think about unions being concerned about versus the social aspects. do social provisions align with sort of just transition.

292
00:56:09.210 --> 00:56:20.009
What are the opportunity and new opportunities is it like for like? And of course there's the other questions about place and space, and so on in the zones of transition, and where workers

293
00:56:20.370 --> 00:56:24.210
might be able to find new opportunities and so on.

294
00:56:25.010 --> 00:56:37.850
So there are those sorts of questions there. But what I guess my issue in terms of getting us back to what we might want to come interested in again. And this is back to this issue of struggle.

295
00:56:37.890 --> 00:56:49.669
And there's always been a lot of talk about just transitions started in the United States by a particular union, and so on, which I'll talk about in a minute.

296
00:56:49.930 --> 00:56:55.880
But I think my point is is that just transition is it's broadly defined.

297
00:56:56.680 --> 00:57:04.860
Okay, that's good. Thank you. is that. Look, these are core union issues.

298
00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:20.179
This is what we deal with in the bargaining room, right around questions of environmental harm, workplace, safety about industrial democracy, the right to be in negotiations about organizational change, job security

299
00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:25.040
and what to do in situations of redundancy.

300
00:57:25.060 --> 00:57:30.670
Okay. Victoria University yesterday, announced 300 redundancies.

301
00:57:30.710 --> 00:57:43.329
The Ntu. Got a sort of a secret squirrel meeting, as you do, and a few hours before the announcement where they could make the case that we don't want forced redundancies

302
00:57:44.600 --> 00:57:49.770
out of that meeting. You got voluntary redundancies. We know they'll be oversubscribed.

303
00:57:49.890 --> 00:57:52.500
but at least people can go with dignity

304
00:57:52.660 --> 00:57:55.700
and some handsome packages hopefully.

305
00:57:55.760 --> 00:58:02.510
so this is core transition stuff. It's core to the bargaining process and what unions do.

306
00:58:04.140 --> 00:58:16.079
And I would suggest. And this is back to, you know, sort of Tony Masachi of the oil chemical and atomic workers who is often credited with

307
00:58:16.180 --> 00:58:29.830
developing this just transition position. And this idea of a super fun to help workers who are in, you know, industries which are environmentally harmful.

308
00:58:29.890 --> 00:58:33.930
needing support in adjustment out of those industries.

309
00:58:34.130 --> 00:58:37.480
What we are currently dealing with.

310
00:58:38.200 --> 00:58:55.189
But what I'm suggesting is is that you know, it wasn't the 1970 s. Or a particular union, or a particular person. These things are rooted and struggle, and they've always been rooted in unions struggle, and I think we can go back much further to find support for these types of

311
00:58:55.690 --> 00:58:56.840
issues.

312
00:58:57.220 --> 00:59:14.540
But what we do start to see among the Union movements across the globe, certainly by 2,000, particularly as the UN. Climate change summit starts ratcheting up. Is that unions start formulating a more just transition position.

313
00:59:14.780 --> 00:59:21.050
Put up a couple there. I didn't put up the I should have done that. But

314
00:59:21.430 --> 00:59:32.559
you get a phone call thing. But you know what these are the common principles that you can.

315
00:59:32.600 --> 00:59:56.190
and you'll look at those common principles, and you know, that looks a lot like what's get bargained at the table around the whole range of issues when it comes to retrenchments, and so on, minimize preferably eliminate forced redundancies, early retirement support schemes retraining our placement, employment support. And of course, this area of okay, well.

316
00:59:56.230 --> 01:00:03.599
structural adjustment, and so big retrenchment exercises and so on. What we saw around Otto, for example.

317
01:00:04.300 --> 01:00:10.359
here in Australia. So you can say, well, this struggle is happening at different levels.

318
01:00:10.470 --> 01:00:27.569
whether it's, you know, at a workplace level among the membership. You can think about it among members as well, and trying to convince them that these are things that need to be done. We're going to have to grapple with this, as you were, you know.

319
01:00:27.730 --> 01:00:48.750
pointing out there. How do we educate workers, and how much do workers know, and what are unions doing in that space? And then, of course, all the way up to the UN Climate conventions, which is seen as a great success, because the Union movement was able to get it into the preamble to the Paris agreement. And I'm not memorizing that whatsoever.

320
01:00:48.910 --> 01:01:02.080
But I I think if we think about it as struggle and not just policy, it becomes a bit more interesting or a different story. So now I just want to do a quick case study here. How am I doing on time?

321
01:01:05.330 --> 01:01:09.390
5 min next one. So

322
01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:17.100
the case study I'll look at is money in an energy union. Most dragons would know what this union is.

323
01:01:17.110 --> 01:01:27.999
It is the PIN ultimate union that's literally at the coalface. So it represents mining workers and energy workers, workers and power plans.

324
01:01:28.540 --> 01:01:32.639
 it's in a difficult position.

325
01:01:34.010 --> 01:01:35.830
and it's a

326
01:01:36.010 --> 01:01:53.179
complex union and many spaces. And I'll you know. See that complexity here towards towards the end. But this is the list of the country's coal-fired power stations, most of them, and dates of closure, and some of them that have already closed and the ones to come to close.

327
01:01:53.430 --> 01:01:57.979
And if you think about that, if I were to replace this with universities

328
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:08.890
and a whole list, and they're all going to close. And it's up to the Union to figure out how to handle this. It's a monumental task right?

329
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:13.289
It's not a fun task for any union to have to deal with this

330
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:19.840
particularly. Our universities are typically publicly owned. But locally.

331
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:26.140
most of these, or many of these, are owned by multinationals, which makes it all that much more difficult.

332
01:02:27.160 --> 01:02:37.180
The case of Hazelwood, 2,008, which closed in 2,017 basically provided 6 months from announcements of closure to closure.

333
01:02:38.300 --> 01:02:45.589
which wasn't particularly pleasant in terms of adjustment for regions, workers, unions, or anyone else.

334
01:02:46.990 --> 01:02:56.339
So one of the strategies in terms of struggle was to get the State Government to change legal obligations about.

335
01:02:56.490 --> 01:02:59.379
close your announcements. So now it's 3 years.

336
01:03:00.020 --> 01:03:15.419
So the next power station that's to go in that region, the You Lauren power station. They're having fortnightly meetings with the Union until now until closure on how adjustment is going to take place.

337
01:03:15.490 --> 01:03:24.030
That's That was an outcome of struggle. Company certainly wasn't too keen on it. But that's how it's going.

338
01:03:24.340 --> 01:03:25.490
So.

339
01:03:25.850 --> 01:03:41.010
 What do I want to say here? Oh, this is a very long project. So this is an interview that I did with Tony Meyer back in 2,008 National President of the Mining and Energy Union

340
01:03:41.290 --> 01:03:52.429
and he described it as their very long-term project. and at the time I didn't really know what that means meant. And I just happened to go back to this interview when I was

341
01:03:52.490 --> 01:04:01.950
developing this paper, and I was like, No, no. So now that's about struggle right? It was about him, you know, knowing that this is this isn't going to be easy.

342
01:04:02.040 --> 01:04:05.659
but this is the reality we're dealing with.

343
01:04:06.160 --> 01:04:20.079
And they did have to constantly, and are currently having to constantly engage with members. And it's not easy, and it hasn't been easy. But it's also been struggling with government. in this space

344
01:04:21.540 --> 01:04:29.560
one of the great successes of very recent, according to the Mining and energy Union, Aller and I have

345
01:04:29.620 --> 01:04:42.470
have certain concerns about this so-called net 0 authority, which has been now so set up somewhat reluctantly by the Albanese Government, and it took a lot of pressure to get them to set it up.

346
01:04:42.620 --> 01:04:53.039
 The greens actually in many ways pushed the Albanese Government to do this because it was the greens that put it through

347
01:04:53.510 --> 01:04:54.749
the Senate first.

348
01:04:56.060 --> 01:04:57.660
So

349
01:04:57.950 --> 01:05:07.880
what? Because in so here's my, what's interesting is it's called net 0 authority. It's not called just transition authority.

350
01:05:07.970 --> 01:05:13.060
In fact, I don't know the history of that, but

351
01:05:13.300 --> 01:05:23.069
I think it was quite intentional that just transition is not in the title, because these are unions, and I don't really want to talk about just transition in terms of that language.

352
01:05:24.990 --> 01:05:31.980
So the net net 0 authority in many ways a real victory. We now have

353
01:05:32.480 --> 01:05:39.379
Greg Combet. who was the former actu secretary who's going to chair it?

354
01:05:39.720 --> 01:05:46.359
Tony Meyer is also on the executive of this authority.

355
01:05:46.890 --> 01:05:59.750
and by all means, you'd say that's a just transition authority. And in other parts of the world, you know, that's how it's being described as Australia's success and establishing it. Just transition.

356
01:06:02.330 --> 01:06:11.429
So I'm going to finish on this point. which is about struggle and ongoing struggle about unions and

357
01:06:11.610 --> 01:06:18.740
back to that question of the material reality at which unions are are dealing with

358
01:06:19.500 --> 01:06:21.529
my coal mines.

359
01:06:21.980 --> 01:06:32.070
piles of cold being exported out of Australia, the Money and Energy union will continue to struggle with that point.

360
01:06:32.170 --> 01:06:46.109
And we're seeing some divisions at the moment, with the money and an energy division in different parts of the country on this question. So, on one hand, Tony Marr, sitting on the net 0 authority.

361
01:06:46.110 --> 01:07:04.899
his membership is certainly, and putting pressure on supporting continuation of coal, mining, and coal exports and so on. Docs, anyone know I put a duck on there. I put this. I put this on there at the moment.

362
01:07:05.010 --> 01:07:12.180
I had a Trades and Labor Council meeting a couple of weeks ago, and they put on the agenda docs.

363
01:07:12.670 --> 01:07:19.890
And I'm like, Okay, why are we talking about dots? The Andrews. Government wants to stop duck shooting.

364
01:07:20.520 --> 01:07:29.669
They're prepared to go to war because their members really do like hunting and shooting, and so on.

365
01:07:29.980 --> 01:07:46.629
And they are ratcheting up a campaign around this. It's complex. It's a complicated long-term project. And that relationship between you know what is a union at the coal face. And you know.

366
01:07:46.780 --> 01:07:48.590
in a regional area.

367
01:07:49.860 --> 01:07:51.039
So I'll leave it there.

368
01:07:51.720 --> 01:07:52.520
Oops

369
01:07:55.470 --> 01:07:56.600
that again.

370
01:07:59.810 --> 01:08:10.219
Okay, so that's a great way to finish. I'm not going to make any teenage jokes about words that are on with dark.

371
01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:13.090
So

372
01:08:14.430 --> 01:08:26.650
thank you to all the speakers, as I said a moment ago, lots of really interesting overlaps, I think, anyway, and lots of really important questions

373
01:08:27.010 --> 01:08:32.460
emerging from this, including the role of the duck in the politics of climate change.

374
01:08:32.730 --> 01:08:46.230
So I'm going to have a look at the I've got. I've got the app on my phone. I'm gonna have a look for chat comments in a sec. But let's take some questions in the room.

375
01:08:46.510 --> 01:08:47.620
A.

376
01:08:49.620 --> 01:08:52.309
I'll bring you a microphone. So there.

377
01:08:57.370 --> 01:08:58.890
yeah, thanks a lot.

378
01:08:59.110 --> 01:09:13.980
Thanks a lot for all the interesting presentations. I've got a 2 2 questions, comments on the presentations about the Uk German employee, participation, comparison. And the first point is

379
01:09:14.990 --> 01:09:23.979
it it might be the case that the answers are from the Uk. And the German workers are difficult to compare, because there are.

380
01:09:26.090 --> 01:09:33.079
because there might be different understandings of what? About what consultation participation means.

381
01:09:33.410 --> 01:09:35.699
I mean, what do the workers

382
01:09:36.130 --> 01:09:39.070
really mean when they answer this question?

383
01:09:39.240 --> 01:09:45.009
Is it that they are asked by their superiors, by works? Councillors? Is it that they do

384
01:09:45.060 --> 01:10:01.499
a partner survey. Would they consider this as participation or not? I mean, what I want to say, is there? There might be different cultural meanings of this? And the question is, did you recognize this in a way? Is it part of your interpretations? If you take account of this one?

385
01:10:01.550 --> 01:10:07.549
The second question it's about

386
01:10:08.470 --> 01:10:15.650
about, I mean, on the other hand, I would say the the this is my second comment. The

387
01:10:15.820 --> 01:10:26.079
the answers don't surprise me in the way, because consultation and participation in Germany is taking place in a representative system

388
01:10:26.110 --> 01:10:39.909
based on the works councils. And so it's taking place there and and usually not in direct contact with the employees, and then it depends on the works councils, as you said it rightly, on the articulation processes between the levels, whether the works councils

389
01:10:40.490 --> 01:10:43.940
participate

390
01:10:44.980 --> 01:11:04.880
ere

391
01:11:04.910 --> 01:11:16.149
are still rather reluctant to make use of emperor participation, and that might be a reason why the figures are so low, maybe against the expectations.

392
01:11:16.260 --> 01:11:18.420
So these are my 2 comments. Thanks again.

393
01:11:21.920 --> 01:11:32.950
Yeah, yeah, no, thanks very much for your your insightful question. And clearly, these things do have different meanings, and both linguistically and obviously institutionally

394
01:11:33.390 --> 01:11:35.190
But I think.

395
01:11:36.070 --> 01:11:51.649
in a way, perhaps you answered the way that I was the the point that I was going to make. I think that in a sense we wanted to establish a sense on the ground where the workers have this sort of sense that they're using interest on this on these matters.

396
01:11:51.660 --> 01:11:58.939
 you know, are engaged. And I, as I say, I think just on first inspection. We

397
01:11:59.490 --> 01:12:11.139
we can't comment on exactly on the form, if you like that that work is interpreted. But that, nevertheless, is a sort of a basic response in terms of whether they feel that they're concerned, an interest

398
01:12:11.200 --> 01:12:28.069
in these sort of processes of decarbonisation, such as they are being reflected, and I think that perhaps our interests are, as I say, more broadly and kind of linking to some of the other papers that we're interested in in. In trade unions. More generally, as

399
01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:39.760
there's space in climate politics are they able to influence the voice of workers, whether section or not, within those structures.

400
01:12:40.200 --> 01:12:46.439
And this is something we'll certainly test and explore more with our more qualitative work. But this question of whether

401
01:12:46.770 --> 01:13:00.670
it is important that we had a great discussion yesterday about power resources in unions. This articulation between what's happening on the shop floor, and how people perceive their interests as being represented

402
01:13:00.870 --> 01:13:12.709
and their actual feel like representation and formal structures. It's important. So there's both this articulation up and down. If you want to look at your levels.

403
01:13:12.820 --> 01:13:17.620
Another really interesting set of data which

404
01:13:17.850 --> 01:13:36.219
interested in is the difference between members and non members views on these perspectives. And there is actually some really interesting data emerging from the survey in relation to this, partly the most interesting is actually the profile of membership.

405
01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:56.129
In a sense, we know that Union members generally tend to be more in flavor of climate policy. but the make up of Union membership in the Uk. And Germany is very, is very different as well as the structure of unions. So these are them. We're definitely going to come back to them

406
01:13:57.150 --> 01:13:58.419
to the nurses. Thank you.

407
01:13:58.500 --> 01:14:05.370
Yeah, thanks very much. That's a very solid answer, Jo. And this, maybe some other questions in there. We might come back to.

408
01:14:05.430 --> 01:14:09.519
I'm going to throw to the back of the room as Steve or Tom going first.

409
01:14:09.570 --> 01:14:33.809
Okay, Steve. Steve Tos New York University. Thanks to all the panelists this is a really sophisticated. And I'd like to say, it's a it's a mature session, and don't mean to comment on ages. but just so well thought out. Commentaries, but I guess it's not so much a provocation

410
01:14:34.270 --> 01:14:35.570
as it is.

411
01:14:35.850 --> 01:14:44.470
Can we get rid of just transition as a concept. I mean, I think it's really difficult. A. Because it took a decade to beat it into the unions.

412
01:14:44.630 --> 01:14:50.510
Now we can't go and tell them it's not there. You gotta leave it on and move on. Some else that's very difficult.

413
01:14:50.530 --> 01:14:52.790
but I'd like to.

414
01:14:52.810 --> 01:14:57.060
You get your is just really get some of your feedback on

415
01:14:57.330 --> 01:15:09.709
the limits of the concept. I mean, just transition is a concept. But there's no theory of the transition in many cases and labor market adjustments really hard for anyone who's done it.

416
01:15:09.740 --> 01:15:18.440
so that's just some of the. And just as an update, I was at the Canadian. The Canadian Labor Congress had its

417
01:15:19.880 --> 01:15:22.170
had its convention

418
01:15:22.290 --> 01:15:49.929
about 8 weeks ago, and for the first time in about 20 years President of Longshoreman's Union did an intervention, saying, we have to keep the coal mines open because my members shipped the call on the East coast, and so I'm thinking we have. This problem of just transition is very problematic. Despite all the work Dmitri is done, Darren's done trying to really add nuance to it.

419
01:15:50.340 --> 01:16:07.860
At the same time we may be seeing a populist backlash in a couple of steps back. Yeah, we're we're with the environment. So I'm just wondering if you can respond to those those cases. Look, that's a great question. And I was going to throw to Tom for his question as well. But if you don't mind, because that is such a

420
01:16:07.980 --> 01:16:32.529
foundational question. I think I'll I'll get responses to that, and then I'll I'll come to you right after that some time. I think right responses will take the rest of the session I'm going to. If it's okay with you guys, yeah, I'll throw to the online speakers first, if mattress and or Diane would like to respond

421
01:16:33.030 --> 01:16:38.700
to that like, I say, elemental question, do we throw out just transition as a concept or a term.

422
01:16:42.130 --> 01:16:45.669
Dimitris Stevis: Yeah, unless you want to say something. I I like to say something.

423
01:16:46.030 --> 01:16:49.860
I I thought you would. Please do.

424
01:16:50.120 --> 01:17:02.129
Dimitris Stevis: My my view is that just transition, or whatever we call it, this part of the long standing conflict over label rights and and other emancipatory rights that go back to the nineteenth century.

425
01:17:02.260 --> 01:17:12.249
Dimitris Stevis: So if we place it with a as one element towards an eco-social welfare state, because social. Well for society, whatever it is, then it makes a little bit more sense.

426
01:17:12.360 --> 01:17:17.050
Dimitris Stevis: and it raises the important question. should we abandon

427
01:17:17.350 --> 01:17:44.100
Dimitris Stevis: any other terms that reflect an ecosocial state, whether it's socialized medicine or socialized education or retirement benefits, and so on, and so forth, or Socialism, or eco-socialism. So it's in the same kind of category of a question. It is not a standalone issue. So just transition is just a term in. It's explicit form device by some Americans. But

428
01:17:44.100 --> 01:18:04.499
Dimitris Stevis: the struggle for just transitions has a long history without using a particular term. Going back to this whole idea of transitioning people from a working age to retirement allowing women to get into labor force. So we have many, many history of successful and unsuccessful transitions that could have

429
01:18:04.620 --> 01:18:24.210
Dimitris Stevis: in their success called just transition. So I don't think the problem is that term the concept of just transition. I think the problem is that there is a shift in our days, and perhaps an underlying current that goes back a long time against what we call ecosocial change. That's my view for what's worth.

430
01:18:24.830 --> 01:18:30.620
It's worth a bit. Thank you very much. Demetrius. Diane, do you want to comment on that.

431
01:18:31.150 --> 01:18:39.230
Diane Sicotte: Oh, okay, sure. I think the term just transition is the kind of label

432
01:18:39.330 --> 01:18:54.209
Diane Sicotte: maybe. President Biden wanted to avoid or try to relabel the green new deal into build back better. And then it got relabeled as the Inflation reduction act.

433
01:18:54.330 --> 01:19:02.100
Diane Sicotte: I think I agree with Demetrius that. no matter what you call it, it's going to be the same struggle.

434
01:19:02.460 --> 01:19:10.489
Diane Sicotte: But I do think that the only sort of advantage that I can think of from the term just transition is that

435
01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:15.640
Diane Sicotte: it can connect to the struggles for environmental justice.

436
01:19:16.050 --> 01:19:20.949
Diane Sicotte: And I'm never going to abandon the sort of dream

437
01:19:21.090 --> 01:19:32.410
Diane Sicotte: that W. E. B. Du Bois had of connecting together racial struggles. struggles for racial justice with class justice in the Us.

438
01:19:32.650 --> 01:19:37.900
Diane Sicotte: and so I think the term might be valuable because of its connection there.

439
01:19:38.130 --> 01:19:42.340
Diane Sicotte:  but it again, it's it's a label. So

440
01:19:43.250 --> 01:19:57.010
yeah, thanks, Diane. Those overlaps and just editorialized for a second with other movements and issues, are really a live question in one particular transition program in Australia that I might

441
01:19:57.370 --> 01:20:04.949
jump in and say something about in a couple of minutes. But first I want to throw to Darren and or Joe

442
01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:18.280
Joe first. Thanks. absolutely. I guess. Just thinking about it. operationally. One of the first interviews I did with a a Uk. The unite

443
01:20:18.360 --> 01:20:27.370
an organizer in their energy sector. In that was 2,01817. He was like, just, it's just another transition.

444
01:20:28.280 --> 01:20:37.139
So that was that was his view on it. After himself working in that space. He was very positive about the ideas, the conceptions behind it absolutely

445
01:20:37.160 --> 01:20:49.879
but reframing it as as people have highlighted in terms of the struggles that workers face of of restructuring, you know, very, very similar questions and issues at play.

446
01:20:49.880 --> 01:21:15.100
whilst we're also recognising these sort of broader. You know the sort of significance as Diane's highlighted of the kind of the importance of that broader sort of sense of justice. And indeed, it's dimitrious, as in terms of the study, that the largest scale study that we're doing whilst it's called just transition in 12 countries. That's what we

447
01:21:15.110 --> 01:21:21.469
it. It's kind of, that's what it is on the tin. We do not in our interviews talk about just transition

448
01:21:22.010 --> 01:21:45.100
until the very end of the conversation about kind of policies and practices, because in the global South, we have cases in Chile, in Brazil, South Africa, Nigeria. These are concepts that are not, you know, the the sort of basic premise of just transition being a kind of a policy and kind of kind of the Ilo guidance, and so on, is very much based on a European vision of

449
01:21:45.190 --> 01:22:05.759
of kind, of social, democratic institutions, and the nature of kind, of representation, of labour in those different contexts is really important to understand. So I agree it. It kind of it has a certain use value. But in terms of, as I say, sort of stops and meaning for workers on the ground. I think it's pretty redundant.

450
01:22:06.350 --> 01:22:19.620
Okay, thank you, Joe. And Darren, I know you will want to say something about look it, it's it's it's in the same lines. I guess the the issue is

451
01:22:20.140 --> 01:22:24.450
 it's not going to go away.

452
01:22:24.500 --> 01:22:41.709
There's going to continue to be sessions in conferences like this around just transition of which I've attended one last night, and I want to see the moon going But so I guess that from a from a Union standpoint it's sort of

453
01:22:42.000 --> 01:23:00.540
do we just ignore that? Or do we still have to engage with it? And because it is being used in in particular ways, and as you did at some point, it's useful. And other times you're just going to. And it's it's been labeled things that we don't particularly understand.

454
01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:08.740
I do think one of the well, 2 things I find a bit sad one. The loss of just transition

455
01:23:09.070 --> 01:23:11.889
in relation to the struggle of workers.

456
01:23:12.390 --> 01:23:21.410
and the second one that just transitioned has morphed into something which is beyond environment.

457
01:23:22.180 --> 01:23:29.480
and when it just becomes about the welfare, state or social support, social security, and so on.

458
01:23:29.940 --> 01:23:33.830
I'm not sure that it's in any longer useful

459
01:23:34.170 --> 01:23:34.960
regard.

460
01:23:35.710 --> 01:23:41.200
because the environmental aspect we're talking about that particular type of struggle

461
01:23:41.220 --> 01:23:49.799
workers are really in it. And from that standpoint I thought it was quite a powerful concept for some

462
01:23:50.870 --> 01:23:59.290
Thanks for that great question, can I? I'm going to just say something, and I'll be brief as the session organizer as well as the chair. Just a couple of things.

463
01:23:59.500 --> 01:24:08.880
Yeah. Well, One of the original sponsors of this session is a very dear friend and colleague of mine. Francis Flanagan, who's worked some of you will know

464
01:24:09.030 --> 01:24:25.089
And the reason that she's not here is that she's speaking by invitation in Warsaw. today, actually. And she's presenting a paper that's about where she's trying to argue the case which some of you have heard in a conference here in Australia argue a case for

465
01:24:25.620 --> 01:24:36.679
at least thinking about the concept of just cessation, and putting that into just transition, or in an earlier version of her argument, especially around coal mining.

466
01:24:36.700 --> 01:24:53.160
preferring the term altogether. For some of the reasons that you mentioned Steve, she makes a really interesting I can't do justice to the paper, but she makes a point that, given the urgency of the climate crisis, if we don't, if we're not talking about cessation in

467
01:24:53.180 --> 01:25:02.360
fossil fuel mining, fossil fuel industries in places like Australia, where we actually aren't seriously engaging. We're not engaging sufficiently seriously with it.

468
01:25:02.700 --> 01:25:12.979
The other thing that's come up here. That she talks about, too. Is you sort of clashed on this, but from a different perspective, is the origins of the term, and you had a great quote there from one of the original sponsors

469
01:25:13.370 --> 01:25:33.610
about how broad it is, and and and then it's taps with some of my memories. And and in her argument about how it was about kind of all sorts of environmental issues, broadly to find, not specifically, which is not a here, not a good, not bad in itself, but not specifically about the climate crisis. So for those reasons and other, she's

470
01:25:33.760 --> 01:25:46.789
wants to tinker it. Yeah, right with you. Exactly right. Joe wants to jump in. Yeah, get the mic. Here. I did a really interesting interview with a Union environment and officer. So I think he left.

471
01:25:47.200 --> 01:25:49.450
I think they actually have just transitioned in their title.

472
01:25:49.500 --> 01:26:01.240
But they were making this observation that the origins of just transition in those environmental struggles in terms of toxic pollutants and how they affected communities, water courses, clean air, and so on.

473
01:26:01.670 --> 01:26:10.530
kind of made sense. And her observation. She's also like a lifelong environmentalist was that focused through into climate

474
01:26:10.750 --> 01:26:22.579
means that the scope of the challenge is so much more diffuse. It makes it much, much more challenging for unions to kind of create a dialogue that makes sense. And

475
01:26:22.610 --> 01:26:32.809
I think that's kind of worthy of reflection. Given that there has been a lot of emphasis on the Paris agreement and just transition within that, because it is an important

476
01:26:32.900 --> 01:26:47.900
insertion. in that broader global governance. But the extent to which those kind of environmental struggles on the ground more more broadly writ, are still really important, and perhaps have a little bit.

477
01:26:48.050 --> 01:27:01.400
The the other thing I wanted wanted to add flows from that directly from the question, Steve, and also from what Darren was saying. It's kind of a report from almost literally the coalface

478
01:27:01.440 --> 01:27:09.410
on one of Darren's slides he had reference to a power station, Mooja, which has been closed or is about to close in Western Australia.

479
01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:35.509
And there is a just transition program in place there. And what's interesting is that, unlike the Federal Government in Australia call not using the term with this new agency. The State government in Western Australia does do it much more interestingly for me, the research. So I'm doing on this. And it comes right back to your question today is that the key union in this case is the we always refer to it as the metal work. As you know, it's name is actually manufacturing

480
01:27:35.510 --> 01:27:40.130
rather the mining Union, and they they in Western Australia themselves, have

481
01:27:40.920 --> 01:27:45.110
actively kind of aggressively, really embraced the term.

482
01:27:45.530 --> 01:27:52.479
I have to be careful, because I know this is being recorded. It's a very delicate issue, shall we say? And what I mean by that

483
01:27:52.500 --> 01:27:56.599
is that other branches of the Union and the Mining and Energy Union.

484
01:27:56.760 --> 01:27:58.080
They don't

485
01:27:58.110 --> 01:28:24.870
encourage them to use the term, shall we say? Because it's considered poisonous because of the sort of politics that Well, we're in the internal tensions, for example, in on it still, workers that we heard about, and also that the issues that Darren was talking about in call so. yeah, they have defined it in a particular way. That is all about what Darren was talking about engagement in. If you like. Traditional industrial relations issues at the same time as arguing for

486
01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:39.770
just transition for the workforce, but also for the interesting stuff around the community as well. So some of the broader issues that Diane mentioned about what we mean by transition have been quite explicitly embraced by a large number of the members of this

487
01:28:40.120 --> 01:28:49.770
Blue collar Union. But it sort of speaks to the wide attentions from the shop floor, not just amongst us academics, and trying to think about what this concept means.

488
01:28:49.870 --> 01:28:58.759
 So either of Diane or Demetrius, you want to have another comment on this terrific question.

489
01:28:58.920 --> 01:29:06.079
Dimitris Stevis: I I want to add a small comment. It's kind of a point that the State of Colorado, where

490
01:29:06.350 --> 01:29:11.190
Dimitris Stevis: I will, he's going actually through a what they call a just transition from coal.

491
01:29:11.270 --> 01:29:14.949
Dimitris Stevis: It is actually being implemented a lot of challenges in front of it.

492
01:29:15.090 --> 01:29:26.140
Dimitris Stevis: and we'll see what happens when the concept of just transition is just applied to natural gas and oil, as some people are trying to. So I think ultimately we have to look at

493
01:29:26.440 --> 01:29:35.890
Dimitris Stevis: policies, whether they are called just transition or not, to see whether in substance just transitions.

494
01:29:36.170 --> 01:30:00.899
Dimitris Stevis: But the abandoning the term of the term just transition is not just a convenient term. It's the same sense that people talk about resilience as opposed to social like a social change. It's a political, it's a political struggle going on, not to say that all Justin's issues mean the same thing. There's a great deal of variability, of use and abuse.

495
01:30:01.150 --> 01:30:02.480
Hmm, thanks.

496
01:30:03.650 --> 01:30:05.630
Do you want to have another go, Steve? After all?

497
01:30:05.710 --> 01:30:10.749
just thanks everybody, because it's really useful. Your responses and

498
01:30:10.840 --> 01:30:19.519
I've been thinking it through because I think just transition is spilled over into another discourse that's emerged in a covid, which is the caring transition.

499
01:30:19.830 --> 01:30:35.440
And I think we're making the same mistakes. And that's what I've been thinking through. So that's why I was mining you, for maybe I should use that term for your responses. But it's very useful. Thanks, Steve, Tom. I promise you're going to get a go in a second, but Darren wants to say something as well.

500
01:30:36.230 --> 01:30:54.870
 So the other 3 other we have overly fixated on Poll, and not guilty of that, and I always always make that comment. I say, I'm never going to mention call again. But you know, in terms of climate crisis, and what we're doing is

501
01:30:55.930 --> 01:31:07.490
the issue of, you know, there's going to be a number of adjustments that are having to be made. There's going to be a number of indices. So is the the State government here in Victoria

502
01:31:07.880 --> 01:31:12.850
has recently made decisions on the He of Forest, and

503
01:31:13.490 --> 01:31:18.330
just had huge implications for a paper mill in that same cold

504
01:31:18.840 --> 01:31:31.910
and there is a similar transition process involving forest works which the Forestry Union has

505
01:31:32.250 --> 01:31:36.800
done for years in Tasmania, and so on. And so of these things aren't particularly new.

506
01:31:36.960 --> 01:31:42.380
But I do think, you know, is it useful to

507
01:31:42.580 --> 01:31:54.970
how do we think about that? In relation to that bigger question, and in the point you raise, and it becomes about climate all of a sudden it becomes much more nebulous, and and so on.

508
01:31:55.380 --> 01:31:56.150
But

509
01:31:56.380 --> 01:32:00.569
he's kind of thanks, Aaron. And now Drumroll.

510
01:32:00.650 --> 01:32:28.520
the patient Tom Barrett, from the University of Western Australia, has a question. Thank you, Bryan. so my my question sort of is stemmed out of Kathy and Karen's presentation on Monday and Brighton's presentation yesterday and Darren's use the word struggle and Basically, the question is, what are the articulations to do with regionality and corporate free relations that undercut these transitions? Because a lot of what's being said here.

511
01:32:28.520 --> 01:33:00.669
I think, has an undertone of the city, imposing something on a regional area, regional areas that face their own sort of disadvantages. And so, just in in terms of your your right analysis again. Sorry you back to the ducks again. Well, I didn't want to mention that the ducks is probably the thing that tied the thread together, because then it gives you an excuse to speak more about Doc Scan. But but but but but also given sort of you know, Demetrius talked about what's going on in Colorado, which is sort of sort of the sort of transitional, not quite cool, not quite periphery, perhaps, although that's on them. Diane, talking about the North east of the Us.

512
01:33:00.700 --> 01:33:10.499
And it's just this idea of how do core periphery or city regionality relations underpin your experiences of struggle in this space. And

513
01:33:11.250 --> 01:33:29.530
I'm particularly and specifically to Joe. How does that articulate in the former? Ddr. Where the the transition out of coal is, I think, primary in Germany because he did say, you taught regional data. And when you say that to a geographer, all I want to do is interrogate regional data. Thank you.

514
01:33:29.920 --> 01:33:45.180
Braden, can I add another quick question that's related? Yes, absolutely. Please do. So. I've just recently been given the role of doing a community engagement Co design process as part of the one

515
01:33:45.200 --> 01:33:57.090
one basin, a Crc. Which is the Murray darling basin crc and I have to bring together rice growers, and horticulturalists, and

516
01:33:57.090 --> 01:34:15.399
all sorts of other people to to examine the theme of transforming their client. They're transforming their communities in response to climate change. And I'm wondering what advice you can bring these people together at the table and talk about transformation, if not a just transition.

517
01:34:16.060 --> 01:34:16.820
So

518
01:34:20.040 --> 01:34:39.370
thanks. And we're having a third question, because the themes are related. Carol. I'm just looking at my notes here and about the relationships with ducks, and I have here. What about everybody else? so it's a question that goes to everyone. And on top of what Tom and Lewis have just said that.

519
01:34:39.370 --> 01:34:56.800
and I was going to use the net 0 authority as the example. But I think it's possibly a global issue. Who else is on it? So if those the mining unions that are on it, who else is on it because climate change affects the whole community, which is

520
01:34:56.800 --> 01:35:12.560
that the regional issue. So one of the voices on there. If the Trojan Labor Council in the coal mining and forestry area in Victoria is prioritizing ducks. You know. What about the other workers who are equally affected by

521
01:35:12.650 --> 01:35:14.170
climate change.

522
01:35:15.820 --> 01:35:20.630
I'll duck off now and give the microphone to someone else.

523
01:35:24.960 --> 01:35:26.810
Okay,

524
01:35:28.010 --> 01:35:38.209
Again, I I feel like it's easy for me to say I feel like all 4 speakers might want to comment. so that going back to time to begin and then working through

525
01:35:38.720 --> 01:35:42.040
those questions.

526
01:35:43.280 --> 01:35:49.799
let's start offshore the mattress. Would you like to comment on any of that? Or Diane.

527
01:35:50.200 --> 01:35:59.860
Diane Sicotte: Actually, I would. yeah. Speaking of regional issues beyond coal. I live in Pennsylvania, which is a gas patch.

528
01:36:00.170 --> 01:36:07.230
Diane Sicotte: We have a history of extractivist energy. development here and

529
01:36:07.450 --> 01:36:16.449
Diane Sicotte: What's discouraging to me is the biggest energy transition to date in the United States is the switch from coal to natural gas.

530
01:36:16.830 --> 01:36:20.970
Diane Sicotte: which is not a climate, friendly

531
01:36:21.210 --> 01:36:26.800
Diane Sicotte: form of energy. So speaking of the regional economy here.

532
01:36:27.190 --> 01:36:32.740
Diane Sicotte: fracking has taken the place of coal mining in Pennsylvania. And

533
01:36:33.150 --> 01:36:44.839
Diane Sicotte: certainly the State politics here are not encouraging. so there's also a big regional piece in the United States about these

534
01:36:45.150 --> 01:36:47.129
Diane Sicotte: production networks.

535
01:36:47.250 --> 01:36:58.679
Diane Sicotte: and I have to agree with Demetrius. the production networks really are driving union support or opposition much more than sectoral interest, in my opinion.

536
01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:24.790
Yeah, I I had that as one of the questions that I wanted to ask in the unlikely event, that there wasn't much questioning, that that you both rise this question of the importance. and so to you, actually, the importance of the sexual issue. and I'll just quickly say that all the Australians in the room, and nodding at what you're saying, because not only fracking, but perhaps more well, not perhaps much more importantly offshore

537
01:37:24.890 --> 01:37:40.999
liquefied natural gas as an export is rapidly, in, rapidly, catastrophically increasing in scale, on scope in this country right now, just for the reasons and in the way that you just said I will be quiet so other people can talk about the questions we just had.

538
01:37:41.570 --> 01:37:44.900
 Joe or Darren

539
01:37:46.330 --> 01:37:51.079
John? Thanks, thanks, Tom, for that insightful question. I

540
01:37:51.790 --> 01:37:57.669
I've got to too too much to say. I'm trying to sum up what I would like to say. I'm looking at. Perhaps

541
01:37:57.770 --> 01:38:17.890
one of the things I wanted to mention just I can't speak with any authority on the Ddr. Question. but clearly, colleagues here and Felix are a much more focused in the German context in the case, study there. So we'll we'll get back to you on that. But, as you may be aware, there has been a kind of a

542
01:38:17.930 --> 01:38:47.019
a cold transition. There has been a process of dialogue around the cold transition. Some would argue that the unions have been described yes, but slowly, as being the kind of position they took, but in a sense some dialogue, and clearly that is both significant of the systems for dialogue, and obviously the significance of coal in that economy compared to the Uk, where it disappeared effectively.

543
01:38:47.230 --> 01:39:00.079
I think the kind of city kind of peripheral kind of conversation is a slightly different one in the context of the Uk. Given our kind of geography and

544
01:39:00.500 --> 01:39:15.890
full size. but it's been interesting that it has been the unions in the in both Scotland, clearly, where the North Sea oil transition has been a is a sort of a major feature, and in Yorkshire and Humber, where we are located because of its significance.

545
01:39:15.930 --> 01:39:30.339
on the Home and Bresci, which is both has had helpful Fab power stations and energy production, but also is simultaneously the place where offshore wind power has been developing. So it's quite a mixed

546
01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:33.139
picture of both

547
01:39:33.270 --> 01:39:46.300
abrupt closure, which is that there we know very little dialogue about the closure of coal fired power stations, but more dialogue around the kind of skills and training that are needed for the kind of new green jobs.

548
01:39:46.330 --> 01:40:14.399
One of the interesting bits of analysis that we are looking at in terms of the survey is the we did? Have we a whole bank of questions about how work, what work demands would be around the transition? The kind of themes that Darren highlighted in this table of the sort of items on the menu list of what's important to workers in different areas. And we do see that workers in those regions that have experienced historical experience of the industrialization. And it's catastrophic.

549
01:40:14.540 --> 01:40:15.650
Okay.

550
01:40:15.830 --> 01:40:35.199
their demands. And they are both. They are much, much less optimistic of the transition, as they might well be of the opportunities for them and their communities, but also their demands are different, because they are much more likely to demand that the process of

551
01:40:35.200 --> 01:40:48.370
if there was any kind of just transition process that that should be privileging those communities. So we do see a geographic dimension.

552
01:40:48.930 --> 01:40:52.289
 thanks, Joe Darren.

553
01:40:53.270 --> 01:40:59.010
I'll be quick. The regional question is a huge one.

554
01:40:59.219 --> 01:41:03.699
I mean, certainly, and sometimes it is perceived as an urban agenda

555
01:41:04.160 --> 01:41:08.870
 and not just an urban agenda, but

556
01:41:10.680 --> 01:41:35.710
not a very educated one, that it's driven by urban politics and greens. And you know the Labor Party need to know some of those green marginal seats as Karen can appreciate. So you know the the thing about locking up native timber right? We're now importing more paper from Malaysia than we were before. We don't have a paper now

557
01:41:35.959 --> 01:41:47.800
is that an environmental success? Is that a just transition? So? And they legitimately. And those are legitimate questions. These are not uneducated people simply trying to, you know, wanting to chop down trees. Yeah.

558
01:41:47.940 --> 01:41:59.389
so I think it is a much more complicated issue. It's not just an urban regional divide, and there are legitimate questions that that have to be asked there.

559
01:42:00.180 --> 01:42:04.150
What to do in terms of your research.

560
01:42:04.260 --> 01:42:16.729
you and I have been involved in these projects before, and you know what happens is it's the same 10 people that come to these things and present their voice.

561
01:42:16.799 --> 01:42:26.349
How you engage those in terms of their views and opinion, and who speaks on behalf of community is a critical question. And how? You

562
01:42:26.410 --> 01:42:31.130
yeah, the alternative voice into those types of exercises

563
01:42:32.070 --> 01:42:35.370
challenging but incredibly important

564
01:42:35.559 --> 01:42:47.379
net 0 in terms of who's on the non-zero authority. That's the final one. I think us. Yes, it's not the local branch

565
01:42:47.639 --> 01:42:54.000
of the mines and energy. It's Tony Mar, national President. He's

566
01:42:55.110 --> 01:42:56.010
person

567
01:42:56.150 --> 01:42:59.570
but he is only the only

568
01:43:00.059 --> 01:43:05.880
yes, and on there. Otherwise, it's climate works.

569
01:43:06.219 --> 01:43:14.240
organization technocracy. So. and that well-known green organisation, Bhp, mining.

570
01:43:14.430 --> 01:43:20.799
I think they are

571
01:43:20.969 --> 01:43:42.999
Dimitris Stevis: to matrices. Did you want to have a comment on this. I I think that we need just on the issues for all transitions, whatever the word we may use is. And I think Diane made the point. The big transition has taken place in the Us. Elsewhere is the one from cold to natural gas. I observed it in Colorado myself very clearly in 2,010

572
01:43:43.190 --> 01:43:52.659
Dimitris Stevis: and To add to that, we are now facing and seeing an unjust transition towards renewables whereby places like Wyoming.

573
01:43:52.809 --> 01:44:18.520
Dimitris Stevis: which is a major producer of coal in the United States, is also now the site of large solar farms and wind farms, and also a small nuclear reactor, very likely funded by Bill Gates Warren Buffett and the Department of Energy. So we see the reproduction of this call periphery dynamics, because all that energy will be going to Los Angeles.

574
01:44:18.660 --> 01:44:45.709
Dimitris Stevis: So that suggests to me that when we think about just transitions, whatever time we may use. We're talking about the fact that there are transitions they tend to be often very unjust in the sense that they affect the weakest amongst us in the worst, or they accentuate the bad divisions of labor or exploitative divisions of labor, and we need to be open to that possibility and not just focus it on cold, but focusing on all transitions, even if we just limit ourselves to energy.

575
01:44:45.890 --> 01:44:47.420
Dimitris Stevis: Thanks for that.

576
01:44:47.590 --> 01:44:52.060
Yeah, no, thank you very much. Let comment.

577
01:44:55.730 --> 01:44:57.719
John.

578
01:44:58.520 --> 01:45:26.529
and a comment and an observation about the sort of dynamics within unions. It's been quite interesting in the Uk. And I'd be interested if other colleagues on the panel, or indeed in the room. have anything to say. We're talking about city politics versus rural politics. But there's also very interesting dimension within unions. There are a lot of labour activists within the trade union, and one of the One of the interesting dimensions in the Uk context is that whilst there was

579
01:45:26.540 --> 01:45:44.950
quite a lot of like official union activity around kind of climate debates, towards the end of the 1990 S. Early 2,000 with a national environmental officer, and this Greening, the workplace program when that fell away, when the essentially, when the

580
01:45:45.320 --> 01:45:55.439
the cyclical dimension of when there was the financial crisis, and unions were all to the floor with redundancies and all kinds of issues, loss of ambitious and so on.

581
01:45:55.440 --> 01:46:17.279
The environmental issues fell off the agenda, and it was the environmental activist within unions that kept it sustained. So now that it back on the agenda of national unions. There is this, you know, all let loose struggle for whether it should just be about some of these issues of kind of the technological green transition, or a more transformational politics that centers

582
01:46:17.280 --> 01:46:26.359
environmental protection also. So these are kind of interesting dynamics, both within unions as well as with other.

583
01:46:29.250 --> 01:46:33.580
 is there a final comment or question.

584
01:46:35.580 --> 01:46:45.019
I say final. For now, because obviously this is an ongoing discussion, and it's ongoing in a very immediate sense, which is that 5 30

585
01:46:46.050 --> 01:46:52.089
local time this afternoon. There's another session about it's called labor and Climate

586
01:46:52.120 --> 01:47:06.210
but it's also ongoing, which was the intention in setting up this panel? that I'm I'm sure it's going to happen that we build on these. I think incredibly fruitful discussions this morning

587
01:47:06.380 --> 01:47:10.030
in further work, and

588
01:47:10.040 --> 01:47:14.839
sure we'll be talking offline about ways. We can do it at further conferences as well.

589
01:47:14.880 --> 01:47:21.290
I've really enjoyed the session and learned a lot. I'm extremely grateful to the

590
01:47:21.300 --> 01:47:27.920
presenters for doing such a thoughtful job as somebody else said, and also for doing it within the time limit.

591
01:47:27.930 --> 01:47:42.250
thank you very, very much, and thank you to everybody for the questions I just got. There's one comment in the chat which is just really A hollow from a colleague of ours in Sydney, called Elizabeth Humphrey. So Elizabeth's done some really interesting work about

592
01:47:42.340 --> 01:47:51.099
the safety aspects of climate change, and she thanks everybody for their efforts, and unfortunately she apologizes for not being able to be here.

593
01:47:51.190 --> 01:47:55.999
So thank you, Elizabeth, for that comment, and thanks again, especially to

594
01:47:56.010 --> 01:48:12.389
God knows what time it is now in the United States in the different time zones there. But Demetrius and I am absolutely lovely to see you and hear from you in this context. And so let's everybody give each other and the speakers a round of applause. And for Darren and Joe in the room. Thank you. Thanks everyone.

595
01:48:23.430 --> 01:48:28.000
Goodbye. Thank you very much. Be in touch bye, bye.