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So then I would, yeah, so then I would welcome you all to this session. I will start by an acknowledging the country.

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And the country we meet on for this word Congress is called norm. It's the home of the coordination, Varangiri, Voiva and people and we are knowledge stirs overanity and pay our respect to their allergies and Shesto stores.

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And by that I would like to welcome you to this session expertise for transformative change. And the backcrampon session is that we know how this call for transformative change of society.

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And environmental expertise has been people people running crucial for much. Or their environmental discourses in our environmental policy making and The new challenge is that it is, requested as a facilitator or Guide in.

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Societal work for transformative change. Sometimes also consciously excluded from that. Policy. So And we have 5 presentations today for here and one pre-recorded and I'm looking forward to all this presentation on this very important topic.

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And by that I will. Start by welcoming Vincent Pacos to the floor and to make your presentation about embedding in indigenous expertise in marine governance.

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So, 15 min is yours and we have 50 min each for each presenter. And then we have at least 30 min to discussing and raise questions.

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Thank you.

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Thank you Ralph.

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You'll just have to forgive my voice at the moment. I, throughout this week I've been sort of battling a little bit of an infection but thankfully it's on the way out.

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So if I pause or cough a little bit sometimes just bear with me as I go through this presentation.

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Thank you all for coming this morning.

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Yes. One, just your, a little bit the camera is here. Okay, please don't hold your notes. No problem.

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Okay, great

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So as as we were as we're discussing today looking at embedded indigenous expertise to marine governance, a code design approach to innovative species research, control on the Great Barrier Reef.

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Just want to acknowledge my colleagues within the room. Prostitute at Lockie and others from James Cook University and our new new colleagues that I've met today.

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So thank you for that. I'd like to just start also with contributing my acknowledgement to country coordination but certainly through my connections with Money Diane from Orangei and now we Caroline Briggs.

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To important elders within the Narm community who were quite instrumental in supporting my PhD research now.

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And some of the insights around traditional knowledge is and environmental engagement in those very formative years of thinking through.

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Indigenous environmental education as part of my research. Today I just wanted to present, You could you could possibly say a preliminary little progress report and update as part of thinking through some of the questions that I wanted to share today.

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With the hope of trying to develop this into a particular paper around code design and what are the kind of things that we could take away and learn from some of the particular engagements that I've had within this space initially.

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So for this project, I just thought I'd just start very broadly and briefly. Around where the project is located.

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But certainly thinking about the great barrier reef. But certainly sea country and its place within traditional owner in.

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A traditional under engagement with terrestrial marine environments. Certainly within the map there just also wanting to acknowledge the Torres Strait Islander region which generally is not necessarily Listed within the catchment of the GBR framework.

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However, also part is part of the spine of the GM, the reef. Shelf as it heads up and connects into the northern region with Papua New Guinea up there.

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And certainly. Engagements between reef, traditional owners and the Marine Park Authority.

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Has developed through various agreements and mechanisms like the traditional owner. Marine use agreement there or indigenous land use agreements there and so they have been I guess the mechanisms that have helped to facilitate participation and engagement between traditional owners and Marine Park Authority.

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Actors over more contemporary periods. But certainly in thinking about the broader understanding of traditional owner engagement with the reef space.

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We can sort of think through an apologies if the timeline is blurred here. I wasn't able to get more suitable.

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Result here but in thinking through this precolonization stage caring for country undertaken by individuals and clan groups.

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Risk responsibility for the land and sea. Estates under the guidance of elders and other knowledge holders.

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These cultural rights and practices continue to underpin contemporary land and see use today. And so just taking a little snapshot that over.

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This period from where this timeline start, 1,788 to now. There's been a.

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I focus on different kinds of engagements through this space. Now certainly, How do our traditional owners acknowledge within the roof space has been, I think, just to sort of highlight 3 particular points around.

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Acknowledgement of British Lana rights to the marine space. But also priorities for see country management in a space where traditional owners are trying to work through priorities for terrestrial engagement as much.

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So throughout this particular timeline here you have. Where do you sort of prioritize your time, your your workload to think through?

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Marine and marine environment or the terrestrial environment knowing the historical legacies within the disruptions of traditional owners and Aboriginal Torres Strait Islanders have experienced more broadly over this historical legacy.

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But then also participation. The notion of a seat of the table, a voice in the conversation, have been very much part of this space and so.

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Just what, the timeline celebrates and acknowledges both terrestrial and marine and engagements within this space.

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But the project that I wanted to just dig down into today is very much about the resilience of the reef looking at the crown of Thorn Starfish itself.

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And the kind of engages that this project is having with this particular marine species. At that time is about invasive species, the Cranathon starfish is a native species.

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But it's it's being a useful Okay study to then think about other invasive species research that is going on.

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But also. What we can learn from traditional owner engagement in this one small area could look at other reef wide ecosystems where that participation actually occurs through a process of code design.

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No. The reef itself. The biggest threats to the reef and its resilience going forward have been highlighted by the authority around marine heatwaves, the coral bleaching.

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And my colleagues this week have also been highlighting. Different aspects of refrees that's out there.

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Tropical cyclones to a lesser degree coastal developments. Water quality. Then obviously the crown of thought starfish as a species through the changes to its environments and biodiversity of the reef ecological systems.

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Populations have risen to a point where it's required a and need for intervention. Within these spaces.

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And so the development of control programs since 2,02012 to then start looking at how do we go out onto the reef.

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How do we identify particular reefs. Why would we identify particular reefs? How do we sort of assess?

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Which reefs we control, the Pramathon staff is shown in which reefs we just have to leave.

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Has been a very complex process of trying to establish that. I just make the point there of Dal Ruru, traditional owners in the top right hand corner where I live and work up there in Cairns and certainly within that space what other kind of engagement traditionalators can make in this a control process let alone the research as a secondary component

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to the crowned upon starfish Oh, management.

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Now, the project has been around. Developing meaningful ways for information sharing around Cranlethorn starfish research.

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And that has involved workshops of traditional owners about research processes, alignments with community principles. Trying to think through intergenerational capacity building strategies.

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Governance of cuts across, place-based priorities and needs. And so really they're trying to think through what are the particular priorities and needs for those 70 traditional minor groups within the roof space.

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How do they come to think about a Lyness Switch routine? Those and the research priorities and these within that space.

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So where does that intersection occur? What are the challenges to thinking through what those alignments might be?

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And how can we amplify traditional owner. Voice and participation in those spaces.

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And coming through with potential for the project to developing principles and guidelines for a code design engagement to inform Kot's collaboration.

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Now the code design process is. Went well was just talking to Alex earlier the co design process the word code design is a you could even think about a sociology of code design what does that mean because within co design there's a particular assumption around equity or How do people participate within that space to ensure that there is meaningful engagement in both

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sides and what does that mean? In focusing on traditional engagement for this space just drawing on the I axis framework there of informed consult involve collaborating in power.

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It's about informing traditional owners. So as a researcher going into those spaces and informing, well, this is the particular research is about, but then participating in conversations around what is that research topic, what is that research endeavoring to do within sea country?

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The process of consulting, involving traditional owners within that space. Collaborating and ultimately coming to a place of empowerment for traditional owners within that space around.

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What your project aims to deliver. What are the key outcomes from that space. And just use the model there of the strong people, strong country framework from 2,019.

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We saw it just highlights key. Pillars of heritage and knowledge. Culture and community education, the health of country, people's health, empowerment in economics.

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And so as a research researcher at NGO. How are you thinking through what is the importance of these particular pillars and how do they align with what you're trying to deliver endeavor on traditional NSC country within that space.

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Now, just a to finish up I just thought a couple of preliminary outcomes was around if we wanted to operationalize a code design process what would that possibly look like as you go towards the broader workshops with other traditional owners within that space.

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And so bringing on in a particular traditional in a group to then just work through and say look at the particular pillars around succession planning.

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Principles of co-research, community institutional readiness. Culture agreement protocols for researchers and managers.

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As a baseline of thinking. There are probably other pillars out there. Indigenous data sovereignty.

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Other employment activities within Cot's research and management. But as a starting point, thinking about these 4 pillars and what can they sort of evolve and develop out to them.

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Think through the connections that they make. Not only to traditional owners themselves within those spaces, but also institutional stakeholders.

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And impact within broader national regional international spaces as well. Has very much been the project's focus and try to think through what what what is the process that we follow as part of that code design strategy to get to this understanding and what more can we learn from.

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So it's a very iterative process through those participatory engagement practices. And then thinking through what what would next be within that space.

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Because when we're thinking about value-based systems. how do we then think through?

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Particular beliefs and perceptions around a value and the actual on the ground needs and priorities that are actually happening in there's this particular gap between that space so how do we start with so principles of research that lead towards an engagement with traditional owner values in some meaningful way and what does that look like?

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The other little example here was just looking at Cot's control programs as part of the management space.

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Now, with the process seasonally you've got through. Roughly 3,000 reefs spread across a very large distance across the GBRF.

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And so within this space, our target list for reefs are developed and these are assessed as part of touristic value economic value as well as the ecological value of a particular reef.

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And so it's broken down to around 500 reefs and from those 500 reefs.

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You then break it down to about 250 reefs per year. That you actually go onto and control for cots.

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Their pots generally release about 200 million eggs per year so you're sort of in this space of well what can we do within this space to then think about how do we prioritize our cots control within the GBR space based on very complex and dynamic assessment and evaluation process.

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The area that for Cots is still working through is a cultural value. And so how do we then think about the particular storyplaces for particular reefs on the GBR and how do we start informing that space as much as the ecological and economic value.

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Placed within this. Now this particular Excel spreadsheet released every year. Within the caught space.

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You can notice it's got latitude and longitude, a particular bioregion. Then a management area far northern.

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You've got northern central and southern regions of the reef. And so just simply thinking about, alright, well, if we could just add 2 columns to that Excel spreadsheet to then think through.

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Placing sea country which we do have a sense of. How would then that start informing particular activities and engagement for those particular reefs that you're going through, yet you're targeting within that space.

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As another strategy within that thing to start thinking about what are the future engagements that you have with traditional owners.

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That you're acknowledging place. You're acknowledging sea country diversity across the GBR and then developing up a database.

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Both. Participants within the Cotts Research and Management that could then link into the particular activities that you are doing within the reef.

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No wise. And so just leaving us, us within that space is very much, I think we've got another.

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Year and a bit or less, probably a year left, Stuart, but within this within this project timeline and so doing these workshops, getting that final evaluation and then thinking about where does it go from here, but also thinking about the workshops that we are how holding with traditional owners now and preparing them for the next iteration of grant

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round funding that is happening within the GBR and supporting them as part of that. Our code design process going forward.

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But, not necessarily within the remit of the Cotts project, but we'll sit outside of it.

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But certainly the link here is to the GBRF traditional library protection web link. So I encourage those of you here as you get a copy of this to explore some of the other traditional research that's going on in the reefs.

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Thank you.

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So thank you, Vincent for your presentation and I would like to welcome Alexander Brucener for presenting The paper on the orthopic contracts but is weaponized common sense and the promise of local clam climate knowledge.

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Thank you. Okay, good morning. Thank you so much for coming. I know it's Probably the hardest session to attend.

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The morning session after the. Big farewell party which is a bit I mean Tight is obviously not true because we're not done yet.

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Yeah, thanks. Well, for having me. I would like to talk a bit about a related topic.

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I'm very glad that Vincent had actually mentioned a few things I would like to mention already.

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So what I like to talk about is the, if you will, title of the panel is Ex expertise for Transformative Change.

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We could say, well, obviously at least when we limit Oh, definition of expertise to scientific expertise, expertise is not enough.

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To establish or achieve. Transformative change. So my question is or my question was then do we need Something else or do we need something in addition to scientific expertise to achieve transformative change in the field of climate change and by the way I will talk about local knowledge and local impact a bit this is the city I'm living in

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that's Kristin and normally we have normal streets obviously but this was one of the It was floods in southern Norway that had ever happened.

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It was just a few years ago and it had an impact on people's perception on climate change. Just Stop it, okay.

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I would like to start with 2 examples that make me think of whether we actually need scientific expertise or something in addition.

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The first one is a mountain you probably have never heard of. It's called Zentis. It's located in the Swiss Alps, but you can see it from Germany.

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Animal 8 years ago I moved to a small German city because I worked at a small German university.

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And I found an apartment in a big apartment block and the top floor was really hot. And on the other side of the aisle of an old cup living.

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A gentleman was 90 years old at the time and when he found out what I was doing he said well I don't need your research.

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We don't need research on climate change. Because I know. Is it really? How?

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They just look. Because I mean, view was not that amazing actually from our window, but you could see this This mountain, it was August and I said, well, what do you mean?

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So what's the color? So that's great. He said, yes. I've lived here all my life and until very recently used to be white.

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But snow cover all year and only in the early 2,000 started there were months for a couple of weeks.

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What was free of snow and that's why that's how he knows that climate change is real.

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Which is of course not a scientific proof but for him that made total sense because in his life world it was located in this.

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A few years later, I moved to southern Norway and we have a tradition there at the university, it's called No Docs Universities, which means Saturday University.

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Which is a A program where university researchers reach out to people go to places and involve citizens. When we decided an Italian colleague and I, we decided that we would go to Argonda, which is a small poor town which is apparently a hub or a stronghold of climate skepticism.

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So people don't accept climate science there. Which I don't know why actually or I didn't know why at the time and what we did we engaged in storytelling activities.

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We asked the people, get whether they can tell us a bit about their climate or weather experiences. And one story that was shared by a lot of older people was that their children have to learn ice skating on an artificial ice skating ring now.

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And I said, why would you? I mean, I'm from Germany. I don't know where else you would learn ice skating or why you would go ice skating in the first place that no no we used to do this in the harbor.

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Was freezing over and the harbours or the ponds or the lakes were perfectly fine. We didn't need ice skating rings.

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And we did it and our children did it but our friendship and they can't do it because it never frees over that's the was the coldest winter in the last 10 years as a picture and that's all the eyes you get you can obviously not skate on this.

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And this is the starting point of what I mean by local knowledge. It's not the same as scientific expertise because There are no statistics, there's no proven theoretical or there's no theoretical concept or no actual reasoning or proof, but it's an immediate knowledge that something is wrong or something is the case.

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And that's what I would like to talk about today. In the next 10 min or so. So what is the background situation?

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What is the background of the problem? You could say we have 2. If you look at the literature and if you look at my own research we have 2 problems here.

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On the one hand we have a gridlocked situation. You could say Despite mounting evidence aance of Warnings.

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Scientific papers. Public letters or whatever. Despite that, there is actually nothing is moving the meal. There's there's a resistance.

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To accepting climate science, especially in the United States, but increasingly also in European countries and there's obviously a certain inertia when it comes to doing something about the problem.

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That's people thought that the first pillar is a gridlock situation. The second one is something that is, like, my Hume and clinics in the United States and myself have researched quite intensively in the last few years.

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It's what you could call weaponized. Common sense. So instead of providing counter expertise. American think tanks, policy research institutes, media outlets produce common sense attacks on climate science.

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The most famous is perhaps as you can see on the right hand side. The US American Senator James Inhofe tossing a snowball in February in Washington to the Senate for saying look that can't be climate change but they are more serious and more sophisticated attempts for example a book published in 1,994 I

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think called equal sanity that basically uses common sense arguments. Against. To the findings of climate scientists. So we have a gridlock situation and increasingly the use of common sense arguments by, let's say, the political right or conservatives to debunk or challenge.

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Climate science and it basically exposes this as a weird theory of an aloof elite.

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And it are 2 escapes to this. The first one is very common. That we have to emphasize.

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Science, communication and scientific literacy to make people understand what's really going on and then everything will be good.

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So that's basically breaking the gridlock. If you would only understand what the IPCC saying, then we would move on.

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And the second increasingly prominent is the so-called reference to tech or traditional ecological knowledge. That is the basically countering this weaponization of common sense by the political right.

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Right to go left and saying okay we need to turn to ingenious knowledge to local knowledge to break this grid lock and we need to understand that people already have a lot of climate change knowledge, a lot of environmental knowledge.

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We can just use it. And I think Vincent is already said in his interesting talk that it's probably not that easy.

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We can't simply do that. And that's what I would like. To emphasis because there are certain problems with that and you have to forgive me I really don't want to imply that I have a general model here because I know I'm based only on European theory here.

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I was trained in the German system. So that's why I'm probably

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More drawn to these theories but I would like to suggest a conceptualization of the problem because what we can find and that's a very crude and preliminary model here obviously is that When we talk about this first escape, the scientific literacy project, then we have to accept it.

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The underlying understanding is that there is a as Goldman said there's a fixed set of virtues and vices that make us help us to understand. In theory, everybody can understand that.

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And if people don't understand scientific knowledge, it's just a failure to do this. You can say this but then in a way if you use genius distinction between so social technical problems and community problems or ghazali shift in germine shift.

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You transfer the whole problem to a technical problem of making people understand the objective reality. Which is a way of seeing things, but you can actually object it.

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The second one is even more problematic because you can say, well, This idea of counter the weaponization of common sense arguments.

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By using traditional ecological knowledge has this problem because as for example women all have described Traditional knowledge is often described as a cumulative body of knowledge, practicing beliefs evolving by adaptive processes in hand and handed down to generations by cultural transmission.

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That sounds really nice, but if you really look into this and for example in Norway scholars have just started to find out more about for example traditional ecological knowledge of the Sami people, what you find is there is no unified knowledge.

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There is no one body of knowledge. That's simply not the case. And so the risk is that we fall into the tiniest trap of either describing the problem as a socio-technical problem that can be solved or romanticizing.

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If you would just involve the local knowledge as if this would be a monolithic block, but it's not as if this would be a monolithic block, but it's not the case.

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So what can we do? And this is my very brief suggestion. We have to avoid this trap.

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You have to find the connection between scientific knowledge and common sense knowledge or local knowledge without either referring it to the social-technical paradigm or romanticizing about unified traditional knowledge.

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And I would suggest And you can disagree with me that we can actually start with Crum scheme. Because for him, and that's really interesting, first of all he said we need to do this in order to have transformative change, intellectuals who he still saw as the main drivers of scientists, scientific expert, need to connect to the

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narratives and the common sense not understanding of people without because otherwise you will never get anything done. But more importantly he said we have to abandon this idea of Ecological knowledge as this you, I mean he didn't think of it but you can transfer.

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This unified harmonious space. Because he said, even in the brain of the individual, the common sense knowledge is Fragmentary, incoherent, inconsistent and most importantly dependent.

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On the social and cultural position. So we just bring sociology back in. I mean, there's no.

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Cultural, traditional communities in the 20 first centuries. Are not homogeneous. Perhaps they never were.

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I'm not an expert in this, but that's that's something we have to keep in mind.

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We have to ask the people what is your relation to the problem, is you see what is your position in your community, is you see what is your position in your community and that's depends, or that affects how people will see problems.

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And. We also have to keep in mind and that's something I found out when we did this little project in in southern Norway which we unfortunately couldn't continue because of the pandemic, that people often can't verbalize it.

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They can't save. If they ask you, can you please give me your traditional take on this or your local knowledge, they can't say it.

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And the reason for this is that

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Common sense knowledge introduces a completely different mode of thinking. Traditional, sorry, scientific knowledge and that's why I will show in the next slide, basically introduces a mode that we could call B coarseness.

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You can always say this happens because of that. And if you use another big grant for you, risk of common sense, not differ gears.

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We have to accept it. It's a different what is the motive of coarseness. So here is this famous definition of common sense.

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Said that in the common sense Knowledge represents matters. A simple nature of the case. It's just, of course.

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Not because and we can we cannot give reasons for that. We just know. And that leads, I'm almost done, don't worry.

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To a true systematization that might be helpful if we try to and apologize for it might be helpful if we try to and apologize for the spelling mistake I have no idea if we try to and apologise for the spelling mistake I have no idea checked it 5 million times.

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I was then just too lazy to upload it again because I didn't know how to do it.

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So instead of a chain of reasoning, a systematic chain of reasoning in the coarsest column and then scientifically we have to, something It is much more intuitive, an unsystematic, incoherent stock of knowledge that is simply known and perhaps can't be verbalized which might be really interesting if you think

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about these co-creation or co-design processes because it's not something that you can simply take from one group of people and transfer into a complex system of knowledge exchange.

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The social context is also completely different. While scientific knowledge depends on trust in scientific agency social institutions like science, politics, media depends on proof and distinct refutable procedural knowledge claims.

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Local knowledge of course is knowledge.

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It's often completely different. It's more tied to personal life worlds. To networks depends on reaffirmation of contingent philosophies often half-known things.

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Which is really important to know. It's more about identity than information. I'm almost done.

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The question, I mean I could actually, now after this talk I could I could simply skip the whole thing.

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If you want to, if you want to bring this knowledge in and connect it to scientific knowledge.

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Then we have to perhaps understand when it comes to the scientific literacy approach. We have to understand or try to understand how these often implicit half known preconceptions affect the intellectual vices and virtues to quote gold again that the make people analyze scientific knowledge.

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We have definitely have to avoid this, my opinion, this cultural romanticism that depicts traditional communities as coherent.

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The errors of knowledge they can simply and easily verbalize. And we have to understand that I could simply refer to the first talk here that this Connectnection requires a dialogue.

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It's not at give and take it's not simply taking it from one group and transferring it to a different community, in transferring it to a different community, but we have to renegotiate.

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These sorry my voice we have to renegotiate this these boundaries between reasoning and implicit. No way.

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That's all I wanted to say. Thank you very much.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Thank you, Alexander for your presentation. And I would not know like to have in Damian, Krishovsky, to present.

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Fostering transformative change in biodiversity governance. Welcome.

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The

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Well good morning everyone.

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So let me start by thanking Roald for organizing this session and also for framing this session in the way you did the in the abstract and I would like to start my talk today by reflecting on the question that is opening the abstract.

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What role should scientific expertise play in the work for transforming society? Towards sustainability. So if by society we mean modern society the way sociology usually does.

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The question would imply that expertise must help us move from an unsustainable kind of Modernity to a sustainable kind of modernity and this is of course the dominant understanding of the task at hand.

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But serious arguments from social theory and also from empirical research suggests that unfortunately the modern social formation is structure or might be structurally unsustainable in ecological terms.

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That green capitalism is an oxymoron that an ecological rationality is impossible and the conditions of functional differentiation.

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That modernity is very conception of reality like anthropist theological conception of reality, precludes an adequate response to the new climatic regime as a lecturer suggests or argues etc.

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So if we find modern society to be overall structurally unsustainable. Then expertise oriented towards modern sustainability or transition might be considered misleading or even maybe dangerous given the stakes at hand or the habitability of the earth.

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On the other hand, if expertise for sustainability implies to work for shift shift towards a radically new or different social formation.

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It choices a lot of difficult questions. Does it mean that expertise must emancipate for modernity or even act against modernity and what does it imply against capitalism?

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In order to I say there's an old tradition there, but also maybe against a state against a liberal democracy.

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So if we open up this the issue and indeed the fundamental I'm also quoting again the abstract of the session fundamental epistemic and normative questions arise.

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So in my presentation today I will present an approach. To for for expertise for transformative change that tries to avoid the pitfalls of these 2 extremes that tries to avoid the pitfalls of these 2 extremes of fake transformation that tries to avoid the pitfalls of these 2 extremes of fake transformation within sustainable modern

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frameworks. Or radical action against the problematic social order that that raises difficult issues. And my argument will be based on an ongoing action research project conducted with GIDSET the German technical assistance branch of our international corporation for development.

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In the field of biodiversity governance with a focus on access and benefit sharing. And also focus on the role of the expertise of critical social sciences.

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So I, so you will know I guess the agenda of social ecological transformation has rapidly gained momentum in the science and policy discourse of environmental governance in the past few years and in the field of biodiversity governance.

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The landmark report of a itb in 2,019 really put transformation on the international agenda.

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The global biodiversity outlook reports that are crafted by the secretariat of the CBD, or that are crafted by the secretariat of the CBD, the conventional biological diversity, the conventional biological diversity, also picked up this trend.

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The conventional biological diversity also picked up this trend if you compare the trend to compare the addition of 2,000 and biological diversity also picked up this trend.

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If you compare the addition of 2,014 of this global biodiversity outlook report. Transformation or transition in the sense of sustainability appears only 6 times in the report and in the addition of 2,020 it is mentioned 287 times and the global biodiversity frameworks that was adopted last December in

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Memorial also contributed to institutionalized transformation. By defining its purpose and quoting the framework as to catalyze enable and galvanize urgent and transformative action to achieve the vision of leading harmony with nature.

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No content context where and I quote again as a framework biodiversity is declining faster than at any time in human history.

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And if you look at international development cooperation, we see a similar trend like a GID, for instance, it started with a concept, a small concept note into some 18 reflecting on what would be the meaning of this agenda, in 2,018, reflecting on what would be the meaning of this agenda, the strategic meaning of this agenda

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for the meaning of this agenda, the strategic meaning of this agenda for JXET. A year later, JSET organized.

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The strategic meaning of this agenda for the strategic meaning of this agenda for JXET. A year later, JESSED organized the annual symposium on just transition.

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One year later, this report and another one was published transforming our work, getting ready for transformational projects and coming September.

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Judge that is organizing internal events to upskill its employees for to get transformation to their projects.

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So I think that expertise coming from critically minded sociology becomes particularly relevant in this context. First it can help.

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I, it can help well or often well-intentioned actors of environmental governance and international development corporation recognize the pitfalls of approaches to transformations that paradoxically build on the very premises and institutions of the social order that is being supposed to, that is supposed to be transformed.

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By analyzing social technical imaginaries and understanding sustainability transition. Sociology can also sensitize actors or practitioners to the limits of abstract visions, models and pathways that are generally disconnected from the thick empirical realities of what transformation is supposed to happen.

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And empirical studies also can highlight the destructive and unjust side effects of projects and policies are conducted in the name of just transition for sustainability.

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However, this kind of expertise of this kind of expertise of critical expertise to be effective, I think publishing papers to be effective.

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I think publishing papers and teaching is not enough. We need to proactively weave this expertise into transformative change processes that take place in those institutions.

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And that's a strand of useful social scientific expertise comes from a critical series of modernity. So I think of the work of Kunol Lateur, Isabel Stangas and Matsing, Hartumont Rosa.

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And many others such as are also working on the Pro Rivers for instance or the multiverse at And what makes this expert is useful for transformative change is its ability to emancipate the minds, not only the minds of scholars, but also of practitioners from the unsustainable epistemological frameworks of contemporary

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modernity. So according to Hartman Prosa and this is crucial and I will quote him he argues that who achieves to change the basic concepts of societies self-description and self-interpretation changes the reality of society itself.

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And while doing interviews at GIDS, for instance, I have found many people who knew about Titan Pose and his resonance theory or for whom Punola to us ideas somehow make sense as I have heard about it but such knowledge is also obviously not enough to induce tangible change.

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So how to bridge this gap between a critical series of modernity and put this critical expertise and which is theoretically relevant for practice and and practice itself so how to make the theoretical relevance into practical relevance.

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For practice so we need methods to do this and I will quickly present our outline this action research project I mentioned that is trying to elaborate and test also a method trying to do just that.

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And which focuses on access and benefit sharing so what is access and beneficiary I will try to to present it briefly.

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So basically it's a governance mechanism. That is concerned to access and use of our biological genetic materials and to associate traditional knowledge.

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So typically medicinal plants, plants used for food and beverage industry, for cosmetics, genetic materials that are useful for biotechnology, etc.

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And previously, users of biodiversity, so research institutions, also commercial users like industry, mostly from the global north.

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Carry or carry out by prospecting or in bioterrorism by in part of storage countries of the global south without much concerns for this countries and for the resource holders.

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So In the 19 eighties, these practices were included in denounced or criticized as a neo-colonial bi piracy.

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And building on these critics, governments from the global south achieved to put this on the agenda and in particular during the international negotiations underlying the UN Convention of Biological Diversity that was adopted in 1,992.

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And as a result, a third objective was put into this convention next to conservation of nature and sustainable use of biodiversity, the objective to craft a regulatory framework that would ensure that users of biodiversity first have to get a prior informed consent from the resource holders and also that to accessing unused biological resources and genetic

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resources they would need to negotiate benefit sharing agreements so that a fair equitable part or share of the benefits go back to the resource holders.

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And so it was quite a lengthy process until this international regulatory framework was put in place with the Nagoya Protocol of 2,010 and GI Zet has been very much involved into this process since 2,005.

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Supporting, partner countries, especially from Africa, during the negotiations that led to the Nagoya protocol and working with them afterwards to put a national regulations in place and that is an international framework.

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Jeanette has also worked with European companies and with SMEs in African countries to promote ABS compliant value chains and also working with NGOs and indigenous peoples and local communities to help them.

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To establish or understand and establish their rights, especially with regard to biocultural diversity.

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So actually several features of of ABS make it quite interesting for for transformative change and deep transformative change.

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Environmental governance. First ABS and bodies a lot of the problematic premises on which the prevailing governance frameworks have been crafted or constructed.

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Within the paradigm of sustainable development of the 1990 s and 2,020 today including the the conception of nature with the dualism between humans taking being considered as outside and above nature.

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ABS also assumed that heightened capitalist exploitation or monetary polarization of biodiversity will create incentives for conservation and sustainable use.

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Overall, ABS operates on the basis of a very narrow and post-colonial conception of indigenous knowledge as knowledge useful for prospecting.

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Yeah and an industry I guess strengthens or assert the sovereignty of national states or territories that are also considered like passive pools of resources to be exploited.

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And at this also is part of post-colonial developmentalism Okay, thank you. With the idea that with benefit sharing, developing countries have to become like the normal industrial nations.

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ABS is also very dysfunctional, but I will skip this point due to time constraints.

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So how how to bring in expertise from Krikos of a theory into it. So in this action research project we operate in 2 phases.

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The first phase is an exploratory study that is provides occasions to us that fulfills several functions. One function is to create Now to formulate a sociological diagnostic of access and benefit showing other governments mechanisms.

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Where problems the problem and the standing of actors can be questioned and yeah, and enhanced with, different.

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Yeah different understanding the framings of the problems For instance, we are showing how, within the framework of APS, like indigenous communities are supposed to enhance their cultural diversity and serve also a benefit to enhance our cultural diversity and serve also a benefit to introduce communities to act with a benefit to introduce communities, but expecting communities to act within frameworks that are not at all aligned with their own ways

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of knowing and being. Partly. Just as an example. This, this, Exploratory study also allows to bring in or to weave perspectives from Latour or from seeing etc.

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In in the discussion at the at or with the secretary right of CBD etc. For instance, when the ad said we need to think and act outside established structures and transform our methods to be fit for the structures and transform our methods to be fit for transformation for sustainability.

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Or to enter to Texas as a back door and then come with power away or sing and say so you speak of up scaling down scaling but this scaling thinking itself is highly problematic for transport transformative change or what kind of time or understanding of time or understanding of space do you have for instance when you discuss this?

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And assert this third functional purpose of this exploratory study is by while conducting interviews with actors, key actors of the ABS regime.

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It's an occasion also to craft alliances with some actors and involve them or raise interest for deep transformation and involve them in the second phase.

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So now we are in between the 2 faces so I cannot tell a lot on what will happen in there.

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Second phase but it will assemble a community of practice with scholars in different disciplines and institutions but also key actors from JSET and also from other industry and representatives of Indigenous communities, etc.

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And it will be like a 4 years process to yet to change the ways of thinking and the ways of acting within this ABS regime and try to transform the ABS region itself.

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And yeah, just because I know the time is short. The idea is really to, for instance, to ask questions like.

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How do we understand plants also as genetic materials or biological materials within a epistemology? But what about looking at plants as partners within more than human assemblage for instance and how to shift from what to do with the idea that maybe not thinking of bio trade value chains but of modern human networks.

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So it's a reconnectualization, so to say, of those social material realities involved in ABS, but working with the actors themselves to try to say, okay, what would it mean for for certain entrepreneurs or for actors within those value chains and try to induce experiments with very tangible concrete change.

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So that's the idea to to Yeah, of bridging had some theoretical discussions with practical. Change in economics and politics and law that around try to shift lines and institutions.

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Yeah, I would have loved to have like an hour to speak about the details of this work, but were to conclude very very rapidly.

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I think that an expertise that is critically minded or what kind of expertise do we need? I think an expertise that is critically minded but constructive that works both with prevailing institutions and against them or against some of their problematic features and premises, an expertise that is truly transdisciplinary and experimental working like real-life laboratories and that proactively

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plays with the unfolding of opportunities for transformative change in the present or as these opportunities arise in the present rather than elaborating abstract divisions, models, plants.

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That are always hard to implement, also there's a lot of playfulness in this kind of expertise to create opportunities and real navigating without without without a plan just like an intention to say walking with the actors and creating opportunities as they followed.

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Thank you very much. And I'm done. Thank you.

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Thank you so much. Came in then I would like to welcome Adori Akayagi to present on media discourse and experts role in scientific evolution.

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Okay.

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Good morning.

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My name is Midari Ayagi from Japan. Today I talk about the media these calls and the express rules in the scientific evolution of the children's children's thyroid cancer study.

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And the reason why I talked about this is that the I talk about the media discourse against. The science, the scientific coverage, a variation.

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Child thyroid study. And we can observe this structure again in the. Covid-nineteen issues in Japan because of the media uses.

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Public gnome and general loan as a tool for their

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Publishing with the articles but this but that that norm is against the scientific variation so that there is some kind of conflict in in media affairs so It's very much common observation in Japan.

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So it's a huge problem. Of our society. Okay, haze and gnome. Here in Japan many municipalities and the companies offer cancer screening as a part of their regular checkups once a year or twice a year.

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And due to cancer being the leading cause of this in Japan. So the National Council Center says that the purpose of cancer screening is to reduce death from cancer through RED dissection of appropriated treatment so that The audio, the better is a kind of gnome in Japanese society, especially unknown among the public.

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But at fourth side of cancer, it's not always the case. And we have that and.

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Health father in Fukushima. And in Chernobyl and there was an increase in childhood cancer in children after an accident.

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It was fair that the same thing would happen. In Fukushima Prefecture after the towards and 2,007.

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The Fukushima accent is on the same level as a catastrophic accident is on the same level as a catastrophe as the during a very nuclear accident in 1,986 at the time of At the time of that accident many people in Fukushima had these news reports

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and they were very worried of course. And since October, 2,011, the Fukushima Production Health Survey has been unconducted.

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On the title ground of people aged 18 or younger. Who are living in Fukushima Prefecture at the time of the Fukushima nuclear accident.

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Okay. And so far about more than 300,000 people, I mean kids. And they've gone these examinations.

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And and a total of 252 people have been diagnosed with thyroid cancer or suspected thyroid cancer.

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And the many of them around this 180. Kids have undergone surgery to limit suspected cancer because that they feared and they believe that the area is the better.

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So that their hand and the parents of the dog kids kids. Thinks that this is a best decision. To have undergone Surgery.

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Professional medical professional didn't think so. Fight of the council in children is very rare. And the fact that the so many cases of thyroid cancer have been found in such a small area of Kushima has shocked the paper over the prefecture not only the people in the prefecture but all Japan.

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But and and the software we did, now it's third round of the survey.

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Are not the only kids but and that the kids in 18 years old at the Kushima accent.

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Now they are More than, I, they are, around 30 years also that they They can have a pound legal checks or that prefix your survey.

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And Some people have pointed out that physical and mental have effects over the thyroid tests. On children and the problem with the testing methods.

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But I'm sorry. But that tests are still being carried out. Actually, many medical professionals. Proposed that we should stop the health survey, especially on kids.

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And it's not just who investigates the fallout of explosions from the accident. Found that it is unlikely that there has been any exposure to radiation leading to health problem infection of prefix prefecture.

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And the amount of radioactive iodine taken up by theroid grants. Of people living in the Fukushima area due to the nuclear accident is estimated to be on average 100 that overturn blue so it's very raw.

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And siloed here. And this and I am this graph shows that Over diagnosis of the thought of the Council, I took this graph from the Osaka, Medical Unibus, Medical Department of the Osaka University, and Teams.

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They are reading people in Japan. They And there are. The red one is that the thyroid cancer that needs treatment and the bloodline shows that the fight of the cancer censored by the written sonic method currently used.

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And they are the huge ovidiaminases here. And there are the 2 types of thyroid constants, younger ones and adult ones, and the younger ones.

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You can see that the The cancer stop developing in in southern age, I mean under 20. And people usually think about and The minds of the adult type.

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That is in a sudden ageing, I mean over 50. And they RAPITRY, they, develop rapidly so that they need treatment.

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But for the younger ones Almost all that over that cancer stop developing so that they don't they usually don't need treatment.

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So that the the council we found in the Y Fukushima area is the upper one.

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And, we have a lot of data because of Fukushima Pre-hector did her survey on more than 300,000 kids.

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And medical professionals in other areas, they did a competitive survey in 2 areas and they Departed in the United Nations.

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And see Ancia and they concluded that they did unlikely to increase title cancer among children who were most exposed to the more than 250 kids.

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Were founded to be a diagnosed to be cancer outside of the council. But actually, they are very calm one and, They need they don't most of them don't need to be

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Treated. So under this report, this result was repeated in 2,020. In same report. And.

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But I'll show you that one big newspaper in Noah this result and one small regional newspaper City of C.

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Write about this report. Yeah, there are huge differences between. Media reporting. So to hear his opinions by the professionals.

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Especially Dr. Miyeri Kawa. She is now in another university but she was in charge of the Julie Doreen's side of the Councillor Herald Salve when she was at the Fukushima Medical University.

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She was in charge of the survey and she said and out of the council is a council that is unlikely to require treatment in the distant future.

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Over dialysis should not be. Desirable, desirable home of medicine for medical professionals who wants to provide tests and treatment for their patients.

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That is why I would like you to know the reality of Hukosima and reconsider. Whether the tests and treatments you are giving.

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Are really necessary. And and and this is I'm sure you focused about prefecture medical university.

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They publish but published is, a, for the,

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Getting content for the survey. Sort of the parents and the kids have to Read this script. And it has the merit part and the milk part.

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And in the damaged part They explained about the overdiosis and advanced dialysis. And some mis disadvantage.

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Over there. But, but, but kids are more than 180 kids. And they're gone and they Have a had a they had a surgery instead of this DERRICK So I study.

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I studied the newspaper articles. Comparison. I data compilers and other newspapers and 4 newspapers.

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One is a National Circle newspaper. As aahishimbum and They are most distributed newspaper in Japan.

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And the next is the Tokyo. Symbol at Tokyo Metropolitan Local newspaper.

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And that far there is a local newspaper in Tohoku area wider So I'll get here and the the fourth is the local newspaper in

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And there are many significant differences among the articles.

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The Asa Hishimbun, the national newspaper. The actors were from very diverse sector in Japanese society, the government, government and ministries and agencies and private organizations involved in the nuclear power plant.

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Related activities, for example, anti-nuclear power. And victims from not only the Fukushima prefectures expulsion of nuclear power.

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But also victims from the and the, and the vacuese from the perfection of evacuees from Fukushima due to the nuclear accident as well as radiation exports.

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For government, councils and other organizations. But The last part. I mean, exports from the national from government and councils and other organizations disappear in in last one year as I took articles.

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And in the local newspapers in Fukushima Prefecture and the actor is very quite limited.

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And other than those related to the government. They are limited to the Fukushima Prefecture Government and the Council is established under the government exports participation in the councils.

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And the people really did get a nuclear power plant. On-site and of people related to the medical school so it's very limited.

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Actors are appeared in their articles. And the most realistic newspaper about those in the greater Tokyo Metropolitan Area Tokyo Shimb.

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Which were notable for their tone of Great. That encouraged confrontation against government and the articles based on the common sense common beliefs rather than scientific evidence.

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Presented by science scientists. Sure. Thanks. So that the comparing contents of the 2 newspapers, I compared the national newspaper as I see them and the local newspaper in Hukushima I mean if And last year.

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And in the Asaishimba there are 30 articles. But then only one article about the UN.

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Say scientific evidence. But the other 29 articles are about the roseuits or Nagasaki and the Hukushima victims around that and in newspapers Fukushima Fushman newspaper there are dying Articles about thyroid cancer?

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And all 9 are about scientific evidence of that. Side of cancer and there are there were no there was no identification related matters so that they don't tell about the consolidated lawsuits to the people.

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So, so there is a huge differences between the 2 newspapers and one nationally distributed newspaper has more social aspect and the best based on the common knowledge or Come on now and in the newspaper Fukushima they are most deported the semantic scientific evidence but not about the science and social aspect.

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So I had the result when it compared, compared the number of related newspapers over time. And changes up and we come Yeah, 2 and 4 newspapers.

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And and the next comparing that they are comparing it to newspapers and I did a content analysis for 2 newspapers and nationally circulated and the rocker is circulated and there's a big difference between the 2.

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And the Okay, and, anyway, that's My results suggest that these differences make policy decision making difficult because one big one is that based on the common sense and another small one local one is based on the summit difficult.

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Evidence and neither of the 2 reported the calls whole landscape. About this issue. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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Yes.

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Thank you, Medoria. And now we have it prerecorded. A presentation of a Macleod chilling his expertise.

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And we have to listen we should listen to that and Katrina has said that we are She invite us to bright males if you have questions.

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To her presentations.

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Good morning everyone. Lily, thanks for reminding me to speak. Sorry, I can't be with you personally.

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I have an enjoyable session. And, yeah, well, my name is Catherine with Blade.

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I'm a postgraduate student doing a PhD at the University of East Anglia in UK.

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And my work looks at climate justice through the lens of postal climate adaptation. Looking at Scotland and in particularly the outer Hebrides, the islands of the coast in the Atlantic there.

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And, today I'm gonna talk a bit about part of my research which engages with the politics of climate adaptation expertise.

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And to think about what options we might have for creating knowledge in different ways. So the pointer departure here is the idea of climate change is a problem of the environment.

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So what that means for adaptation is the way that in the past of course it's been seen through this rationalist logic where climate impacts lead to these neat solutions.

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So for example predicted sea level rise might lead to the construction of a sea wall for example. Drainage system and as many critics have now pointed out this geophysical view.

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Means that not only are the human dimensions being sidelined as we see here in the Breleton diagram.

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As a separate part of the system but also gives the appearance that science is this neutral endeavor that sits outside the political dimensions and so distracts away from questions about who's making decisions about what's going on here.

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And So there's been a movement within environmental social science and humanities to push back on this.

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Neutral image of climate adaptation which has fostered this discussion about transdisciplinarity and transformational adaptation thinking about how we can bring in alternative and different knowages to to break open this sort of scientific domination of the climate change discussion.

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And those arguments are granted on the one hand in social and environmental justice debates with moral claims as well as functional more utilitarian claims about the fact that if we don't take these knowledge into account and then there's a risk that adaptation measures will fail.

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And so one of the ways that has been proposed to do this is through co production processes. So bringing different stakeholders who are have a stake within adaptation, so scientists.

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Civil society business politics and so on. To come together, to. Co-produce knowledge.

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But by bringing these different voices together doesn't necessarily. Produce a situation where we would have better outcomes.

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And so there have been. Many papers which have critiqued the fact that co production needs to engage with this soon is to engage with questions of politics and power and recognition.

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But I want to add another So additional points of critique which is it's not just about being attentive to who is involved in contributing knowledge and but also how the knowledge context of the history of knowledge and processes, how that background affects and shapes the possibilities for even implementing co-production in the

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birthplace. And So what I would argue or I'm questioning and wondering is that if, this this historical context.

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Doesn't produce conditions that are conducive. To. To co production of knowledge. Then what alternative methods could we use that would bring in these other voices?

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So 2 questions. So how does historical context affect the possibilities for collaborative knowledge production? And how can we think about potentially adapting our research methods to account?

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Or this this context. So diving into the outer Hebridean situation for those of you who don't know it so well, it's situated in the Atlantic Ocean and has been variously thought of as

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The west of Scotland, the Western Isles, North Britain, north of England and also as the Southern Isles of Norway.

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When it was part of that territory. So it's been very much this area which has been thought of as a peripheral place, so very much on the margins geographically.

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And what we see is that that marginal position geographically is also reflected in the way in which it's seen culturally, linguistically and developmentally.

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So very much from the Roman times potentially before these areas were characterized as places of barbarians.

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Various racists and derogatory terms is about the peoples who lived there. And then.

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Moving forward. Several centuries we we come to discussion enlightenment which had this idea about linear human developmental processes moving from hunter-gatherers through agriculture and and merchant trade towards a civilized society.

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And within that context, the outer hebrides are classified as a backward race of primitive peoples, a cultural backwater.

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I was asking.

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Sure.

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So characterized here not just as geographically distant but also culturally and developmentally behind whichever mainland or place they were being put in relation to.

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I'm accompanying that was this denigration and and later targeted eradication of the Gaelic language which contained knowledge about rural environments, agricultural practices, not to mention cultural and social practices.

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And so what we see there is that by by denigrating language in that way, we are teaching the speakers that they they must be modernized and re-educated.

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And so their knowledge system is not valid. And you know, this was used as the basis for things like the clearances.

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We see this overly romanticized picture here on the bottom right. But essentially this this idea that people were just ignorant and then had no, no value.

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Really So to dominate. That's the most extreme intervention that perhaps took place within the history.

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More recent centuries but what we see is that in small ways future what happened then in the nineteenth, twentieth, 20 first centuries are these consistent interventions where people are coming in with another knowledge system saying the local context local knowledge isn't adequate for dealing with an issue but we have the solutions.

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Okay.

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And so, and that's reflected also in interviews that I've conducted. And his archival research that I did on the right hand side you see a a report written by a local crofter farmer who was asked to participate in an environmental protection project and to write it up afterwards and he he himself says about his

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report that it will not be as much value because somebody else who's been scientifically trained elsewhere will be more observant.

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And so this idea that everybody else is more intelligent than we are. Those perceptions are of course changed and they're a little bit more nuanced than I've presented here but but these these sentiments do do run through.

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And so what we see here on the with this project for example is that even when lay people whose communities so when they're asked to participate where their communities have been subjected to these oppressive colonizing influences.

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When they are drawn into these collaborative knowledge production processes and us to interact with authority figures from science or policy.

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Whatever and we see that there are these epistemic harms that are traces of of those injustices of the past.

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And so we would need to be mindful of that when we're thinking about intervening with climate adaptation dimensions.

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So and particularly there are these 2 risks that I see a systemic risks within co-production processes.

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So firstly we're talking about participatory epistemic injustice. And, here.

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Crofters are often Recognised for for their knowledge system and so on. But They're very much asked to.

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Add something to an existing framework that's been Dubai by somebody elsewhere. And so there's very few efforts to elevate their knowledge into a form of recognized expertise that they're asked to contribute to framing as a problem.

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But very much science retaining that power and in the case of and adaptation often it's economic knowledge as well which is which is very dominant there.

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And then projects even where they have tried to get people around the table. There's this issue of epistemic.

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Trust. When you live in small communities, the idea of coming to a public place and declaring your thoughts and ideas in front of others who might not agree with you and who you may potentially harm with your perspectives.

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Do can be a socially dangerous activity essentially. And so asking people to come along and and contribute is not only precarious but then this additional idea that well it's not going to lead anywhere because you're the ones who say everything anyway.

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You know, the science is in power. So this sense of disempowerment and epistemic risk.

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The lack of trust. They all feed together essentially to create a situation where I'm arguing. The idea of co production coming together in this group situation is is not appropriate for the outer Hebrides.

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Okay.

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So, on that basis I decided to try to develop an alternative approach for integrating other forms of knowledge and expertise into my research.

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I have pictured it here very briefly as an overview, but I've outlined it in a paper that I circulated as well.

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So if anyone has feedback or questions or thoughts please don't hesitate to get in touch. I put my email at the end of the presentation slide.

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But essentially it's based on a form of sort of critical ethnography and, Feminist Ethics and Care, Post qualitative research that draws on quite a few different strands.

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And but essentially working towards a sort of curious exploration of research questions. And that are of mutual interest.

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And I argue that this is a, is a very productive way of bringing knowledge plurality in as expertise in a way that's non-invasive, it does less epistemic harm and it has the possibility of really recognizing the other person as a knowing research contributor.

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So I'm just gonna provide a couple of examples and then we'll go to conclusions already because I know we have too much time but just to show how I tried to implement this in practice.

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So the first way in which I did this was through one to one encounters. So really working with people in this very slow,ential way not getting everybody in the room to discuss something together and come to a common conclusion but really working in a way that was reflexive and one of the the key parts of this.

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So a lot of it was outside in the environment, walking interviews. And sort of acknowledging together about the environment.

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What does this mean? What could this be like in the future and so on. But also. Really trying to knock down that idea of science as being the the holder of all answers to all of our questions about climate change and really trying to to elevate the situated expertise of the person I was with.

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And the, also trying to, I've described it here as the scaffolding of knowledge production.

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So really trying to emphasize the fact that we were producing knowledge in that moment. And this is how knowledge is created and so I think that goes a long way to sort of undermining but in a positive way.

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And this research hierarchy that that normally takes place in the in these one to 2 situations. So very much about trust building.

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And reciprocity. And the second example, that I want to provide was a collaborative climate fiction project that, brought together a group of women.

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To to it although it had organizers and participants it wasn't set up like that so the idea was that it was a very much a collaborative.

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Project with a strong focus on kind of reducing that hierarchy. Where everybody was creating and writing together.

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And what we did was to look at climate scenarios, IPCC reports as well as local tales and news pieces about changing environments.

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And really trying to dismantle knowledge hierarchies and thinking about what does climate change mean for us as islanders and trying to disregard in some way this is push against this dominance of climate science as the one that designs.

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Because even within theoretical debates, although there might already be this recognition that science doesn't have necessarily all the answers on environmental science.

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That, message definitely hasn't trickled down to, the average. Citizen of the UK.

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So really challenging the that science is not the only way of knowing climate change and of experiencing and of thinking about solutions for the future.

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And for many, it really created this sense of empowerment and epistemic agency and we saw also people feeling confident to use the Gaelic language alongside their understanding of science and so that was really nice to see that sort of re emerging as this very situated language, not just the school galaxy, but really

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very much the community garlic. So reclaiming that and also telling stories about non-sentient being so really engaging with these different ways of knowing within the environment.

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So just a couple of conclusions then. So we've seen there's an increasing interest in integrating other knowledge into climate adaptation.

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And the first lesson here really is the co-production isn't necessarily the way to go forward in the context of the antiquities.

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We need something which is more reflexive, more engaged and more committed to the people and their reality rather than coming in with this.

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Yeah.

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This idea as collaborative and nice as it sounds on paper. And so I proposed this list of principles and experimented with different methods to implement those, in this context.

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And I mean the most appropriate methods would always need to be explored in situ but I think that with this more engaged approach to knowledge is a practical way to reduce the possibility of epistemic harm when we are trying to incorporate these different knowledge and to just give them time and respect to.

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And the space that they need to develop. And just to explain the image on the left here this is It was a sounds.

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A kind of soundscape of how somebody was experiencing the environment. Through words and trying to do it in a pictorial way.

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And on the right is a piece of kelp which is very common there which was used. To create a kind of physical.

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Mould of of the environment. So just different just experimenting with these different ways of knowing and and just really valuing those other forms of expertise about their own environment.

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All I can say is that it was very fun. I can highly recommend being more engaged. Of course it's slower.

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That would be.

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Of course it's more expensive in the context of real research projects which are not don't have the time and spaces of a PhD perhaps but definitely some food for thought at least for me and I think for some from others I've come into contact with in this process.

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I've included some references here. They're tiny. If you look at the slides, hopefully you can see the links and look at those.

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And as I say, please do get in touch if you have any questions or comments. I'd love to hear from you and please take a look at the paper which outlines some of my research approach in more detail.

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And I wish you very fruitful discussions and I look forward to hearing from you virtually. So thank you very much.

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And look forward to him on you. Bye bye.

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Then I would welcome all presenters to the table.

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So we have about 20 min for questions and discussions. First I would like to thank you all.

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It was a very rich and broad presentations about different aspects of expertise and its role in transforming society.

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I see that the presentation touch on issues about plural knowledge system. Capacity building who'd design coup production the issue of scaling and also about media role in mediating experts advice and experts knowledge.

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It right question about all epistemic status and epistemic justice. I'll start by open up the floor if For those who have questions I have a microphone there and I just coordinated their For those of you who would like to raise questions, yes please.

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And please introduce me with your name. Thanks. Hi, I'm Theresa Petra. I'm from James Cook University but in Townsville and I'm not familiar with Vincent's work university but in Townsville and I'm not familiar with Vincent's work so this is definitely not a

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pre-planted question. Thank you all for your interesting presentations. My question is for Vincent primarily, but welcome reflections from the other speakers as well.

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But welcome reflections from the other speakers as well. So given what you said about local knowledge not being monolithic and adding the extra layer of complexity of the GBR traditional owners groups being 71 groups, different groups.

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So you have non-monolithic. Individual nations and 71 of them. I guess so first of all just what are your reflections on that in general?

456
01:31:17.000 --> 01:31:24.000
How do you as researchers go about engaging those.

457
01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:42.000
Very big diverse groups. Particularly given that last presentation and and how do you find that settler colonial Reef governance bodies go with acknowledging that that kind of level of knowledge diversity.

458
01:31:42.000 --> 01:31:49.000
What was the webinar with that last week? Okay.

459
01:31:49.000 --> 01:31:54.000
The name of the last speaker.

460
01:31:54.000 --> 01:32:03.000
Thanks, thanks very much for sharing. If I can just start off with Just sort of highlighting that.

461
01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:19.000
Traditional knowledge. As it forms and unformed is always becoming. Now it is in this we need to understand it is in this constant process of movement and engagement and growth.

462
01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:38.000
And decay and as an indigenous researcher myself. When you are working with traditional knowledge that also in part these subjective impacts not only on my histories and legacies but what I'm doing within the research space.

463
01:32:38.000 --> 01:32:53.000
It it creates this very And I'll say innovative and creative space to then understand. Where does it go because you are on a daily basis within that space of being challenged by these particular governance frameworks.

464
01:32:53.000 --> 01:33:06.000
I mentioned 2 there that traditionally used many resources with these particular agreements. Which you could say are a a form.

465
01:33:06.000 --> 01:33:17.000
Of shaping traditional knowledge in appropriate ways to be able to be amenable to existing colonial governance frameworks.

466
01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:34.000
And so within that space there are challenges. Just as much as there are. this weakness of seeing traditional knowledge as a transactional process knowledge for a framework knowledge for governance.

467
01:33:34.000 --> 01:33:40.000
4 state actors. But then I would also add to that that it's

468
01:33:40.000 --> 01:33:59.000
The strength of this process of always becoming is that it can attest not only to those opportunities for transactions but opportunities for relationships and so It is part of a it's It's in common on not only myself as a researcher but all researchers.

469
01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:07.000
That you're mindful of how you operate within that space in a highly reflexive and aware approach.

470
01:34:07.000 --> 01:34:15.000
That's specifically for the GBR. What we may have discussed in 2,022.

471
01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:24.000
Very much has changed and has reformed but there is still that timeline that I presented in my in my a PowerPoint slide.

472
01:34:24.000 --> 01:34:33.000
They're still this consistent. Approach where there is a part of a terrestrial approach to sea country.

473
01:34:33.000 --> 01:34:49.000
Or a particular case specific marine approach to a sea country. You have to see them as part of that process And we, we, I guess myself as indigenous research and as we come to conceptualize traditional knowledge.

474
01:34:49.000 --> 01:34:57.000
Always on that shaky ground of what we sort of deploy in those objective subjective spaces and that's That's part of that process of navigating that.

475
01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:14.000
You can't readily try and rest on one particular spot in time and say here it is because otherwise you fall into that trap of this romantic notion as one of my colleagues there's mentioned there.

476
01:35:14.000 --> 01:35:28.000
And, reflecting on Katrina's comments there. It's tough, but it's also Yeah, we have to be fulfilling to be able to work within the space with GBR.

477
01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:42.000
College speakers what we don't discover in 2023 2,024 2,025 traditional knowledge itself is built into this succession process.

478
01:35:42.000 --> 01:35:51.000
Knowledge is part of that succession. So. There is another generation that is coming ahead of me.

479
01:35:51.000 --> 01:36:01.000
Discover that part of that process for me is ensuring that I support that guiding. Guiding journey for that when they come.

480
01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:15.000
To then engage with that space. Have that legacy within that space which is I guess part of that discontinuity within the GBR space that we've I just sort of alluded to, but wasn't what he had a chance to be able to speak to.

481
01:36:15.000 --> 01:36:22.000
We're having to revisit those discontinuities as part of the development of traditional knowledge is going forward.

482
01:36:22.000 --> 01:36:29.000
But then working within the frameworks of research scholarship and how we come to know as part of that.

483
01:36:29.000 --> 01:36:34.000
Oh.

484
01:36:34.000 --> 01:36:41.000
Thank you. I've got 3 questions on the list. Yeah. Just very briefly.

485
01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:53.000
Thank you for your question. I think the situation is actually much more complicated because I mean, as long, there's this spatial dimension to this.

486
01:36:53.000 --> 01:37:10.000
Idea of invoking traditional local knowledge. But that's, I mean. In that there are 2 properties here at the problem because it's kind of this, we even call it a newer orientalism as these other people living there in their traditional spaces, but they don't.

487
01:37:10.000 --> 01:37:21.000
I mean, to embarrass myself, I work at a research center at my university. I'm actually leading this stupid research center and have an administrative head working closely with me in itself.

488
01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:29.000
2 months ago, Really interested in this this disarmy discussion. I've never met one. Personally.

489
01:37:29.000 --> 01:37:42.000
They said well I was talking. Okay. So I don't, I mean, perhaps that's exactly, they must look different.

490
01:37:42.000 --> 01:37:55.000
They, they, they must look different. They must look different. They must look different. They don't. Of course they don't look differently.

491
01:37:55.000 --> 01:37:58.000
They must look different. They don't. Of course they don't look differently. They live in Norway.

492
01:37:58.000 --> 01:38:14.000
More Sami live in the 2 things again, what, cut, where don't we draw the line but who is who is a member of a traditional community who's not in after centuries of decades of contact with other people.

493
01:38:14.000 --> 01:38:25.000
And what counts then as is the local knowledge. I mean II really skeptic of this is not only that we believe that this traditional knowledge is It's a.

494
01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:31.000
A coherent monoric body but also that we can confine them to a territorial space.

495
01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:37.000
I'm pretty sure the people living on these islands in North Scotland also had contact with other people who moved away.

496
01:38:37.000 --> 01:38:42.000
Still tied to the tradition. I'm not in a position to decide that they are no longer countless members.

497
01:38:42.000 --> 01:38:50.000
Better be your mind. I don't know the situation in Australia. But I'm also pretty sure that not everyone who belongs traditionally belonging to its territory still lives there.

498
01:38:50.000 --> 01:38:55.000
So it's actually much more messy than we think.

499
01:38:55.000 --> 01:39:06.000
Thank you. And I said that's Stuart. You raised your question and then you raise your questions too and then we get response from your panelist.

500
01:39:06.000 --> 01:39:13.000
Thanks, Ralph. Thanks everybody. Stuart Lockie working with with Vincent in in the GBR.

501
01:39:13.000 --> 01:39:20.000
Like all members of the Scottish diaspora, you know, I like the idea that I'm a blue painted pictish warrior at heart fighting.

502
01:39:20.000 --> 01:39:36.000
Plotting British colonialism. You know, you write Alexander that there is a degree of spatial and temporal separation that probably makes that a fairly meaningless imagine, imagined But.

503
01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:48.000
Okay, I find the definition of and I know it's not a definition you explicitly endorse but that definition of traditionally ecological knowledge about being about localness and experience and so on.

504
01:39:48.000 --> 01:39:56.000
Fundamentally problematic and that continues to treat. Indigenous knowledge as as like a bundle of facts.

505
01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:11.000
That just happens to exist in an oral tradition. Rather than you know in a written and scientific tradition and which you know really comprehensively underplays like epistemic authority, that ability to decide.

506
01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:18.000
You know what really matters in terms of new knowledge and on logical authority to decide what really matters per say.

507
01:40:18.000 --> 01:40:29.000
And when we write those authorities out discussion about biological resources. About landscape management about public health.

508
01:40:29.000 --> 01:40:37.000
We're really putting indigenous and local communities in a position where they're always going to be subservient.

509
01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:48.000
Because there will always be people who No more. One of the interesting features of of the project, Vincent and I have been working on.

510
01:40:48.000 --> 01:40:59.000
I don't think this is simply a result of employing Thank you. We find the research participants.

511
01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:08.000
Finding ways to insert their authority. Into the project which muddies the idea of of code design and code production.

512
01:41:08.000 --> 01:41:19.000
In a in a good way and I think Also, Muddy's perhaps those critiques. Because Of course people are not stupid.

513
01:41:19.000 --> 01:41:25.000
Know that co designs the latest buzzword. Out of for us and our case out of Brisbane.

514
01:41:25.000 --> 01:41:38.000
But authority power finds its way back in in really interesting, unexpected, hard to understand. But really quite productive ways.

515
01:41:38.000 --> 01:41:49.000
So that's that's a speech by all as a question about just asking for your for your reactions.

516
01:41:49.000 --> 01:41:52.000
Sure, not yet. I think it's, so we know that we have time for 2 reasons.

517
01:41:52.000 --> 01:41:59.000
Thank you. Look, Jillian Paxton, I'm from James Cook University.

518
01:41:59.000 --> 01:42:20.000
Really hogging. Stuart. I'm like Stuart, I'm just a little bit troubled about the use of co-production as a little bit troubled about the use of code production as an approach to engagement.

519
01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:28.000
From where I stand, all knowledge is co-produced is just whether that's recognized and who is participating in that co-production.

520
01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:39.000
So for me it's about the quality of the relationships and what's actually being assembled in these relationships and what's actually being assembled in these relationships and does it reflect an equitable I'm spread of knowledgeages.

521
01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:53.000
Okay. My question, I loved your I loved all of your presentations so thank you but to a Oh, student is the word authority.

522
01:42:53.000 --> 01:43:01.000
I didn't hear the use of the word authority. So if you were thinking about authority as something car-produced, so there's somebody who claims authority that there's this.

523
01:43:01.000 --> 01:43:14.000
To resist that authority and also ratify it. A couple of questions. In that process, what do you think was happening to start to the scientific authority.

524
01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:25.000
Happening regarding thyroid. These touches on every of those presentations. And also the use of those terms like the earlier the better.

525
01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:33.000
In narrowing the possibilities for different forms of authority. That's as much as.

526
01:43:33.000 --> 01:43:41.000
Thank you. So now you are, yeah? Thank you. Thank you for your questions.

527
01:43:41.000 --> 01:43:55.000
I was thinking about the I Government cannot decide to stop. Because the scientific experts. They propose for years.

528
01:43:55.000 --> 01:44:02.000
To stop the story because it's meaningless and It's not only the meaningless, but the heart.

529
01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:14.000
It has hammers for kids in Hukushima. Even though they exposed. And some radio radio pull out from there.

530
01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:30.000
But the the does that, the, the newspaper is so powerful. And that's one reason it's at that they fear they mean that government or scientific authority Fears attack from the media.

531
01:44:30.000 --> 01:44:43.000
But huge impact from the media attack in Japan. And also the government used the survey as a tool for explaining.

532
01:44:43.000 --> 01:44:53.000
That the proof of the We are taking care of the kids in Fukushima when I watched the United Nations Office of Human Rights.

533
01:44:53.000 --> 01:45:03.000
And they have them every year or a certain year, regularly. Category review and I watched the Japanese version a few months ago.

534
01:45:03.000 --> 01:45:12.000
And in that country review, human rights country review, my government explained that we are taking care of Kushima kids.

535
01:45:12.000 --> 01:45:16.000
Because we are doing a

536
01:45:16.000 --> 01:45:37.000
To follow. So authority I mean the administrative authority and scientific authority. They use this fact as a tool for carrying kids and also

537
01:45:37.000 --> 01:45:46.000
Someone said someone wanted out that the the scientific authority, they need money when they need the funding for their research.

538
01:45:46.000 --> 01:45:55.000
And if the continues they could get That is such money or that.

539
01:45:55.000 --> 01:46:10.000
And, so. At the and Madam Monk. II want to see the people I don't see the kids So,

540
01:46:10.000 --> 01:46:29.000
I think that that's how it should be. Stop. Thank you. So that I saw the answer to your question about authority and especially scientific authority is that I think, They have to decide.

541
01:46:29.000 --> 01:46:35.000
The whether they continue the study or not.

542
01:46:35.000 --> 01:46:48.000
Okay. And so give the opportunity to respond to. Stuart's comments and I want

543
01:46:48.000 --> 01:46:59.000
Thank you. Yeah, well, maybe I will try just to share. One thought, because it touches on most presentations.

544
01:46:59.000 --> 01:47:08.000
Which is a Is it? Itistemic Authority in justice of plurality proverbs.

545
01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:32.000
It is a concept that make protagonists, scientific and non-scientific protagonists of co production or transformative change processes sensitive to those dimensions but we cannot expect them to, to, to provide solutions because it's the ways or the concrete issues that

546
01:47:32.000 --> 01:47:41.000
So, protagonists are confronted with as diverse as social relations in general. So just to give you one example related to the action research project.

547
01:47:41.000 --> 01:48:01.000
At the beginning interacting with employees from JETZ, many of them were expecting me as a scientific expert to bring in evidence and to claim a certain degree of objectivity, which of course I myself question.

548
01:48:01.000 --> 01:48:06.000
In the way of your constructive nature and technology, etc. And many of them didn't want to.

549
01:48:06.000 --> 01:48:15.000
Didn't like it at all. Just different scene I was doing field walking on media in March this year.

550
01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:30.000
And I assisted to. The meeting where it is, at, at,itage agreements were being negotiated between the exporter of tablets claw and members of the Sun community introduced community.

551
01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:39.000
And where also like a cultivation project of table scroll as a strategy for climate change adaptation is also discussed in the room.

552
01:48:39.000 --> 01:49:06.000
And there it was completely different. You. It was really like a classroom setting with like a an expert from NGO simply what is climate change I will explain you and then it's in, so, 2025, it will be this much rain, this much at space for discussion was very for frame in the way that it

553
01:49:06.000 --> 01:49:18.000
prostitutes. To commercial interests, etc. So, that's Okay, it's certain it's in certain, contexts.

554
01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:28.000
Which was saying that power authority that people are smart and it comes It comes back at you and kind of control.

555
01:49:28.000 --> 01:49:35.000
The situation anyway. This is this might happen in certain contexts that in other states it's true.

556
01:49:35.000 --> 01:49:45.000
Yeah, yeah, structural racism and, violence and asymmetrical relationships. So I see that, yeah, it was just like sensitizing.

557
01:49:45.000 --> 01:49:57.000
Concepts but we can each situation there the actual meaning for transformative change would be different. I don't know if it's response somehow to

558
01:49:57.000 --> 01:50:02.000
Any other one who would like to give in a response?

559
01:50:02.000 --> 01:50:14.000
Yeah, sha, just a short part, yeah. I mean, basically, we all agree, but, Corona has answered it.

560
01:50:14.000 --> 01:50:21.000
I mean, she said that these projects, if you really want to do it. Properly is very difficult and very expensive and that's why it's probably Probably not that comes at all.

561
01:50:21.000 --> 01:50:41.000
I think that's all. Space time is running we have to end the session it The new one stars about 10 min and we have some time for informal chat and questioning with the panelists or You each other.

562
01:50:41.000 --> 01:50:54.000
So I would like to thank you all for attending in the session and not least you who present the very interesting and important contribution to this topic about knowledge and expertise and transformation.

563
01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:59.000
Thank you so much.